College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)


Would you guys do this? I would have to say that I think I would. First, we would get not only one, but TWO, defensive minded centers to pair with Big Al... which is precisely what we (and Al) need to succeed.

Also, JoNo and Brewer are best buddies, which will help our chemistry. We'd presumably ditch McCants, which would also help the chemistry immensely (players typically do NOT talk to him in the locker, and I know that for a fact.)

We all know the facts about Free Agents not wanting to come here and blah blah blah, that's all true. Wallace's contract is terrible, but we will still have decent flexibility, especially considering we'll have two more giant expiring contracts the next two years (Walker @ 9M next season and Wallace @ 15M two years from now.)

I think Noah + Jefferson could be a pretty studly combination for years to come. Plus, they'd both have Ben Wallace to mentor them.

Well done Stop N Pop, I really like it... I think we need to email McHale.

I wouldn't do it. Ben Wallace is overrated and is definitely past his prime at this point (ignoring the game he had against us in Chicago). While it would be nice to have a defensive presence in the middle, I feel like we can find better (in the long run), younger options for a fraction of the price.

Also this would leave Chicago very thin in the middle. I'm not sure why they'd even consider it.

foley wrote:
College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)



I wouldn't do it. Ben Wallace is overrated and is definitely past his prime at this point (ignoring the game he had against us in Chicago). While it would be nice to have a defensive presence in the middle, I feel like we can find better (in the long run), younger options for a fraction of the price.

Also this would leave Chicago very thin in the middle. I'm not sure why they'd even consider it.


Chicago does it because it's no secret that they are trying to get out of Wallace's contract. Theo's Ghost gives them instant cap relief. We would basically be doing it for Noah. Yeah, it would suck to have Wallace's contract, but he's still got some game and only has two more years. What else are we going to do with the money anyways??? Nothing....

College Wolf wrote:
foley wrote:
College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)



I wouldn't do it. Ben Wallace is overrated and is definitely past his prime at this point (ignoring the game he had against us in Chicago). While it would be nice to have a defensive presence in the middle, I feel like we can find better (in the long run), younger options for a fraction of the price.

Also this would leave Chicago very thin in the middle. I'm not sure why they'd even consider it.


Chicago does it because it's no secret that they are trying to get out of Wallace's contract. Theo's Ghost gives them instant cap relief. We would basically be doing it for Noah. Yeah, it would suck to have Wallace's contract, but he's still got some game and only has two more years. What else are we going to do with the money anyways??? Nothing....

I guess I'd like to have the option to have some money to spend at least as opposed to having it locked up with Wallace. We need flexibility at some point.

foley wrote:
College Wolf wrote:
foley wrote:
College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)



I wouldn't do it. Ben Wallace is overrated and is definitely past his prime at this point (ignoring the game he had against us in Chicago). While it would be nice to have a defensive presence in the middle, I feel like we can find better (in the long run), younger options for a fraction of the price.

Also this would leave Chicago very thin in the middle. I'm not sure why they'd even consider it.


Chicago does it because it's no secret that they are trying to get out of Wallace's contract. Theo's Ghost gives them instant cap relief. We would basically be doing it for Noah. Yeah, it would suck to have Wallace's contract, but he's still got some game and only has two more years. What else are we going to do with the money anyways??? Nothing....

I guess I'd like to have the option to have some money to spend at least as opposed to having it locked up with Wallace. We need flexibility at some point.

Yeah, that is valid. Honestly though, are any "big name" free agents going to come here? I'd have to go with "no" on that one. Still, I guess anything is possible. Also, we'd be removing a little salary from trading McCants (6M possible total for next two years) and Craig Smith (Potential Re-Signee - 4M per year?)

Lastly, Wallace's contract actually goes DOWN over the next two years. 14.5M next year and 14M the year after. I know it's not much, but at least it doesn't go UP like 95% of the other contracts in the NBA...

Hey, thanks for the shout-out on the trade idea. Another reason for doing this (and even for cashing in both the Celtics and Miami picks) is precisely for the reason you mention with Shaddy and Smith's potential contracts. I have the salary breakdown here.

The Wolves are sitting in the mid-$50's already with next year's 8 contracts and 1st round pick. They have 3 big contributors who will need to be signed: Gomes, Bassy, and Smith. Gomes is going to get a nice deal, probably to the tune of 5-6 mil. Bassy is probably in the 3-5 mil range as is Smith. Meanwhile Foye and McCants are essentially the same player with one pretending to be a point. In short, if they are going to keep these young players from the KG trade, there isn't going to be any flexibility with free agents for 2-3 years anyway. The money is out the door and the only way to increase options is to bring on more salary; allowing the team to operate over the cap and then attempt to move Walker's expiring deal in 09 or Wallace's expiring deal in 10. Or, if they really did want to make a move on a free-agent, to do so with a bunch of slotted rookie salaries and Wallace/Walker's money off the books after the 10 season. Ratliff will likely sign somewhere for (relatively) cheap after this season so you can't really count on a cap-hold. This deal would allow them to get rid of 2 players they don't need to pay in the next few years as well as giving them more long term flexibility. I'm not so sure the Bulls would go for it as Noah seems to be one of their best, most promising players, but I sure think the Wolves could make the package a tempting one...especially with those 2 first rounders from Miami and Boston.

College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)


Would you guys do this? I would have to say that I think I would. First, we would get not only one, but TWO, defensive minded centers to pair with Big Al... which is precisely what we (and Al) need to succeed.

Also, JoNo and Brewer are best buddies, which will help our chemistry. We'd presumably ditch McCants, which would also help the chemistry immensely (players typically do NOT talk to him in the locker, and I know that for a fact.)

We all know the facts about Free Agents not wanting to come here and blah blah blah, that's all true. Wallace's contract is terrible, but we will still have decent flexibility, especially considering we'll have two more giant expiring contracts the next two years (Walker @ 9M next season and Wallace @ 15M two years from now.)

I think Noah + Jefferson could be a pretty studly combination for years to come. Plus, they'd both have Ben Wallace to mentor them.

Well done Stop N Pop, I really like it... I think we need to email McHale.


Wow that trade looks great. Is Noah that good of a rebounder and a legit center?

And yes do email McHale!!!

brewerforROY wrote:
College Wolf wrote:
The credit for this trade goes to Stop N Pop. He's been advocating in favor of some variation of this trade for a while now, both at CanisHoopus and in Britt Robson's comments.


WE GET:

Joakim Noah + Ben Wallace

FOR:

Some combo of young talent: McCants and/or GG and/or Craig Smith + Theo's Corpse + #1 Pick (Boston or Miami's future First.)


Would you guys do this? I would have to say that I think I would. First, we would get not only one, but TWO, defensive minded centers to pair with Big Al... which is precisely what we (and Al) need to succeed.

Also, JoNo and Brewer are best buddies, which will help our chemistry. We'd presumably ditch McCants, which would also help the chemistry immensely (players typically do NOT talk to him in the locker, and I know that for a fact.)

We all know the facts about Free Agents not wanting to come here and blah blah blah, that's all true. Wallace's contract is terrible, but we will still have decent flexibility, especially considering we'll have two more giant expiring contracts the next two years (Walker @ 9M next season and Wallace @ 15M two years from now.)

I think Noah + Jefferson could be a pretty studly combination for years to come. Plus, they'd both have Ben Wallace to mentor them.

Well done Stop N Pop, I really like it... I think we need to email McHale.


Wow that trade looks great. Is Noah that good of a rebounder and a legit center?

And yes do email McHale!!!


Yeah, he's a good rebounder. He also plays solid defense and never stops hustling. He's like a way more talented Mark Madsen.

Noah started 3 of the past 4 games and averaged 10 points and 9 boards in about 30 minutes of action. Not bad at all...

This is a ballin trade for us. I've been thinking we should pick up Ben Wallace's contract for awhile now. They don't want him, and his salary wouldn't even affect us. There is no one we need to resign to a sizable contract before his contract expires.
Lets face it free agents aren't coming here unless we give them marko money for marko talent. Plus all we lose is a 1st rounder given that mccants green and rhino don't bring anything to the twolves that we need (well mccants' scoring but who wants the baggage and raptors-version-vince carter-shot-selection). None of them should be kept after this year. We need to trade them or something before other teams figure out they're not very good (or do they already know?)
Do it Mchale or else.

roundhouse wrote:
This is a ballin trade for us. I've been thinking we should pick up Ben Wallace's contract for awhile now. They don't want him, and his salary wouldn't even affect us. There is no one we need to resign to a sizable contract before his contract expires.
Lets face it free agents aren't coming here unless we give them marko money for marko talent. Plus all we lose is a 1st rounder given that mccants green and rhino don't bring anything to the twolves that we need (well mccants' scoring but who wants the baggage and raptors-version-vince carter-shot-selection). None of them should be kept after this year. We need to trade them or something before other teams figure out they're not very good (or do they already know?)
Do it Mchale or else.


Pretty sure the other teams with even halfway decent GM's already know that McCants eats sack.

I'd still do it if Chicago was willing.

Noah + Jefferson would be studly for years.

OK, here's another one that I'll put up on Canis Hoopus this week:

To the Grizz:

Ratliff
McCants
2 2nd rounders

To the Wolves:

Darko
Brian Cardinal
Kyle Lowry
Memphis 1st rounder (preferably their own but Laker pick will do)

Why it works?

For Memphis:
1- They clear about $22 million in salary next year.
2- They get a up-tempo 2 to run with Conley and Gay in their new offense.
3- They get 2 additional picks in the top 32; a net gain of 1
4- They clear about $22 million in salary next year.
5- They clear about $22 million in salary next year.

For the Wolves:
1- They get another real point
2- They get another 1st rounder
3- They fill out their front court at about $3-5 million more than what they will probably spend on 1 mid level exception and re-signing Craig Smith. Seriously people, that money is already out the door for 3 years anyway. You may as well get a draft pick and a point guard while you're at it. Let Smith walk and take this package.
4- They stay below the luxury tax number while filling out the roster
5- They get another 1st rounder

Let's play fantasy general manager and pretend that they can get a center with the Memphis pick. Here's what next year's rotation looks like:

1- Bassy/Lowry
2- Jaric/Foye/Brewer
3- Gomes/(Beasley/Greene/Gallinari)/Brewer
4- Big Al/Cardinal
5- Darko/(Thabeet/Hardin/Lopez/Hibbert)/Big Al

What say you?

At a first glance, sound quite solid, if not good to me...not that I would expect otherwise from stopnpop. I don't know if I'll get roasted for it, but I'm on board with it.

I can't say much about Brian Cardinal of whom I have absolutely no opinion, but since the Grizz seem wanting to rid of him desperately, I guess he is the deadweight we would have to take on. Has anyone more insight on him than just his statistical values which I have looked up (probably) he is willing to share with me (more important)?

Although this seems like a pretty solid and smart trade to me, I have to admit that it would somehow leave me a little bored. It makes sense all and over - given that it would never happen because the Foye-for-PG-project is still running - but I would have expected that for dealing Theo's contract plus X, we would receive somewhat more of a middle-aged vet who has already made himself a good name, something just a little bit more spectacular instead of solid talent and a low pick, since now way Memphis would give up their own which could easily end up being No.1 this year or the next.

But like I said, it makes sense...Darko would surely play well besides Al, and having an additional 1st round pick, even if a lower one would be great since none of the center prospects in the draft (as far as I know) although decent, would be worth wasting a top-ten or even top-five pick on. And that I am the first to welcome push Foye to 2-Guard, no matter how it works out is also well known by now. McCants a goner anyway, so no need to hang onto him...but we then better hope to score Beasley in the draft, because we really seem to lack decent scoring. Both Cardinal and Lowry seem to shoot a decent 3pt-percentage (which will help with the spacing for Big Al), but neither seems to be the big second scoring threat we'll need besides Jefferson. And if Foye will really become that second option without a steady shot...I keep hoping, but I won't bet on it.

All in all: Pretty smart proposal...only a little boring ...but that's the way smart decisions are, I guess. I especially liked how you made clear that Darko would not come us much more expensive compared to resigning Smith...whom I like to bring from the bench, but still is badly undersized which already too many players on this team are.

The reason the Grizzlies are try desperately to get rid of Cardinal is because he has one of the worst contracts in the NBA. He adds absolutely nothing to a team, he is a blob of shit.

We already have Marko, Toine, buckner, and maddog's contracts to worry about, we really can't afford to take on more bad contracts.

The goal of every team should be to win a championship. If you look at the teams that win it or contend to win it (Spurs, Pistons, Suns before Shaq trade, among others) they have no bad contracts. You can also skate by with a couple of bad contracts, if you're team is good enough. We are not good enough, combined with our cheapskate owner, we should never take on more bad contracts, or else we'll be doomed to cellar dwelling for the next decade.

But if you look at a team like Portland, they took on additional bad deals to be able to operate over the cap. The Wolves aren't going to do anything in free agency for another 2-3 years. They're also going to have to fill some roster slots next year and/or re-sign players like Craig Smith, Bassy, and Gomes. The money is already going to be spent. Let's say the Wolves re-sign Smith for $4 mil/year. They'll probably need another frontcourt player for around mid-level exception money (@ $4 mil). They can probably get Bassy for around $3.5-4 (if they don't use the mid-level on a big guy, he'll probably get it) while Gomes will cost about $5. These are probably 3-4 year deals. That's $17 mil for 4 players and 3-4 years. That's just to maintain the 10-win status quo.

If they made this deal, they're on the hook for $11 mil for 2 more years with Darko and Cardinal. They wouldn't have to give a midlevel exception to another frontcourt player and they would still have to sign Bassy and Gomes. This comes to $20 mil for 4 players with 2 of them having less years on their deal than would going out and signing a mid level front court player for 3-4 years and re-upping the Rhino. The money for Cardinal/Darko would clear the year after Toine and the Wolves would have about $10 mil to spend in free agency after 08-09 (Toine) and 09-10 (Darko/Cardinal).

Taking on contracts during a period of free agent inactivity gives the Wolves more flexibility than they would have if they just let Ratliff's money expire. They're going to have to get 2 frontcourt players for 4-5 mil anyway. They may as well get a point and a pick out of the deal.

It's not a "great" or "mindblowing" trade by any means (I can see how it's a bit "boring" as well), but I don't see how we couldn't make the trade if it was available.

Cardinal only has two years left for a total of $13 million... not the worst thing ever. Also, if we can get the underpriced Darko ($14 Million two more years) AND a #1 draft pick out of the deal, we gotta go for it. Darko hasn't been spectacular so far this season, but he's still a viable Center in the NBA. I think he could do well paired with Big Al. Also, we could use their pick on a "project" center, which would not be a bad thing to do at all.

The thing that puts it over the top for me is Kyle Lowry. I like him and think he's an 'above average' to 'good' player. There's no way we can't do this if we got him, Darko, and a future first. That's a haul.

It makes sense for both teams, due to the massive salary dump that Memphis would be able to undertake. Losing McCants... addition by subtraction.

Pretty good trade SNP, I'm all for it. You want to email McHale or should I?

I see your point of view, and it's quite solid, but I still don't like it. There are a couple of different reasons I don't like this trade:

1. As I already stated, Cardinal's contract sucks. Also Darko is a good, young big guy, but he should not be making 7 mil a year.

2. Would you rather have Lowry or Telfair? If this is done you might as well just throw telfair into the trade. If this trade was completed, would management give up on their quest to make foye a PG, probably not. Why would telfair want to resign here and split minutes 3-way with foye and lowry. You know at least one team is gonna offer him good money and probably 3-4 years to be the 1st guard to come off the bench.

3. Any way you look at it, we still need to draft a superstar to be a good team. We might as well wait it out, work on developing young guys, while letting the bad contracts we have expire. Among the young guys resign them if they're going to be a key piece of the team. When we finally hit jackpot in the draft (if we ever do), you have that team around them to make a run. That superstar (or really good scorer could get it done with Al) is probably gonna want a max contract, to go along with Al's large contract. From there on out you're operating over the cap and the holes can be filled in with the mid-level exception etc.

That's my plan anyways, of course I make it sound way easier than it really is but you get the point.