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TOPIC: Team Needs

Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12746

  • pants
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mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
You're confusing caps here. There's a soft and hard cap. The Wolves can resign Gomes (and maybe Bassy) and still not hit the hard cap that brings about the lux tax if they decide to keep their 2nd rounders. They are going to get rid of 3 (maybe 4) of their free agents. This has been clear since the beginning of the year. The status quo on a 22 win squad isn't something to lose too much sleep over. Those 2nd rounders are bargain basement players with 1 year deals. They are gold to this front office in that they allow them to either pick a Euro who won't come over for a year or two, trade to a cost-conscious team in the late 1st, or pick a player who can fill a roster spot for a year or two on the cheap a'la Craig Smith and Chris Richard.


I'm not confusing caps, I fully understand the cap situation. The NBA uses a soft cap with a tax at a certain salary amount. The soft cap was at $56m last year like I said and we have $55m in salary right now. Depending on what the salary cap increase is, we only have a few million to spend in additional salaries. While the salary cap can be exceeded under certain circumstances(free agent exceptions, rookie exceptions, mid-level exceptions, etc...), the salary still counts against the cap.

For example, if the cap was set at $59m, we have $4m to work with. That $4m is taken up right now by free agent money used by exceptions until the free agents are signed by us, another team, or renounced. If we resign Gomes to $4.5m a year, we can go over the cap by $.5m but we have then met the salary cap and cannot sign a second round pick other than on the mid-level, if possible. We can still sign a first round pick under the rookie exception but second round picks are not included in the rookie exception. We can also resign Smith, Snyder, and Telfair via early bird and larry bird exceptions but it still puts us over the cap and therefore preventing us from signing others.

Granted, we can draft a Euro and just not sign him and still maintain rights to him until we are ready to bring him over. We can also trade those seconds for a first and use the rookie exception to sign that draft pick.


So does that make it an order of operations issue? As in... the wolves need to sign the rookies THEN sign free agents who have their exceptions.


No, because those free agents count as additional dollars against the cap as a free agent amount, which in our case is probably way more than we would spend on them in salary after being resigned. They would have to be renounced in order for this amount not to be counted towards our cap but then we lose all rights on the player. This is the free agent amount that each one of our free agents with exceptions is counting towards our cap:

Smith - $5.356m (Maximum = \"Greater of 175% of previous salary or average salary\")(Average salary)

Richard - $512,596 (120% of his previous salary)

Gomes - $13.041m (\"Maximum Salary\")(Maximum salary)

Telfair - $7.687m (300% of his previous salary)

Snyder - $7.075m (300% of his previous salary)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?
Thank you for the baton Mr. Kidd - Pretty Ricky
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12747

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I'm pretty sure that the team can renounce the exceptions, take the high amounts off the top of the cap, and then sign Gomes, Bassy, or whoever. This may be only for teams that are under the cap, which Minny will be before the draft. Also, I don't think that Gomes qualifies for the Bird rights max deal against the cap. He made under the league average so I think he only qualifies for 300% of his salary if the team uses an exception on him. Since he made less than $1 mil this year, I think this is yet another obvious reason why the club will target him and Richard...they are the cheapest of the bunch and they allow the squad to work with their 2nd round picks and/or get another 1st rounder. Bassy still has a qualifying offer and as a restricted free agent, he can simply accept the Wolves' QA (set around $3 mil) for one year and then go free agent the next. He'd be on a one year deal but anyone that uses an exception to sign him will take a cap hit as mentioned above.

Also, the numbers listed above assign Bird Rights exceptions to a few players. There are more exceptions with which the Wolves could use to sign these guys. Again, I think they'll only sign one or two, but non-Bird cap hits are only 120% of the previous contract.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12748

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pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
You're confusing caps here. There's a soft and hard cap. The Wolves can resign Gomes (and maybe Bassy) and still not hit the hard cap that brings about the lux tax if they decide to keep their 2nd rounders. They are going to get rid of 3 (maybe 4) of their free agents. This has been clear since the beginning of the year. The status quo on a 22 win squad isn't something to lose too much sleep over. Those 2nd rounders are bargain basement players with 1 year deals. They are gold to this front office in that they allow them to either pick a Euro who won't come over for a year or two, trade to a cost-conscious team in the late 1st, or pick a player who can fill a roster spot for a year or two on the cheap a'la Craig Smith and Chris Richard.


I'm not confusing caps, I fully understand the cap situation. The NBA uses a soft cap with a tax at a certain salary amount. The soft cap was at $56m last year like I said and we have $55m in salary right now. Depending on what the salary cap increase is, we only have a few million to spend in additional salaries. While the salary cap can be exceeded under certain circumstances(free agent exceptions, rookie exceptions, mid-level exceptions, etc...), the salary still counts against the cap.

For example, if the cap was set at $59m, we have $4m to work with. That $4m is taken up right now by free agent money used by exceptions until the free agents are signed by us, another team, or renounced. If we resign Gomes to $4.5m a year, we can go over the cap by $.5m but we have then met the salary cap and cannot sign a second round pick other than on the mid-level, if possible. We can still sign a first round pick under the rookie exception but second round picks are not included in the rookie exception. We can also resign Smith, Snyder, and Telfair via early bird and larry bird exceptions but it still puts us over the cap and therefore preventing us from signing others.

Granted, we can draft a Euro and just not sign him and still maintain rights to him until we are ready to bring him over. We can also trade those seconds for a first and use the rookie exception to sign that draft pick.


So does that make it an order of operations issue? As in... the wolves need to sign the rookies THEN sign free agents who have their exceptions.


No, because those free agents count as additional dollars against the cap as a free agent amount, which in our case is probably way more than we would spend on them in salary after being resigned. They would have to be renounced in order for this amount not to be counted towards our cap but then we lose all rights on the player. This is the free agent amount that each one of our free agents with exceptions is counting towards our cap:

Smith - $5.356m (Maximum = \"Greater of 175% of previous salary or average salary\")(Average salary)

Richard - $512,596 (120% of his previous salary)

Gomes - $13.041m (\"Maximum Salary\")(Maximum salary)

Telfair - $7.687m (300% of his previous salary)

Snyder - $7.075m (300% of his previous salary)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?


Yes, Richard qualifies, but you need one year of service so the 2nd round picks couldn't get it.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12749

  • stopnpop
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Let me just add once again that the biggest FUBAR this club made last year was not moving the Ratliff deal for players that would have allowed them to operate above the soft cap until they have room in free agency.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12750

  • mwithers
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pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
You're confusing caps here. There's a soft and hard cap. The Wolves can resign Gomes (and maybe Bassy) and still not hit the hard cap that brings about the lux tax if they decide to keep their 2nd rounders. They are going to get rid of 3 (maybe 4) of their free agents. This has been clear since the beginning of the year. The status quo on a 22 win squad isn't something to lose too much sleep over. Those 2nd rounders are bargain basement players with 1 year deals. They are gold to this front office in that they allow them to either pick a Euro who won't come over for a year or two, trade to a cost-conscious team in the late 1st, or pick a player who can fill a roster spot for a year or two on the cheap a'la Craig Smith and Chris Richard.


I'm not confusing caps, I fully understand the cap situation. The NBA uses a soft cap with a tax at a certain salary amount. The soft cap was at $56m last year like I said and we have $55m in salary right now. Depending on what the salary cap increase is, we only have a few million to spend in additional salaries. While the salary cap can be exceeded under certain circumstances(free agent exceptions, rookie exceptions, mid-level exceptions, etc...), the salary still counts against the cap.

For example, if the cap was set at $59m, we have $4m to work with. That $4m is taken up right now by free agent money used by exceptions until the free agents are signed by us, another team, or renounced. If we resign Gomes to $4.5m a year, we can go over the cap by $.5m but we have then met the salary cap and cannot sign a second round pick other than on the mid-level, if possible. We can still sign a first round pick under the rookie exception but second round picks are not included in the rookie exception. We can also resign Smith, Snyder, and Telfair via early bird and larry bird exceptions but it still puts us over the cap and therefore preventing us from signing others.

Granted, we can draft a Euro and just not sign him and still maintain rights to him until we are ready to bring him over. We can also trade those seconds for a first and use the rookie exception to sign that draft pick.


So does that make it an order of operations issue? As in... the wolves need to sign the rookies THEN sign free agents who have their exceptions.


No, because those free agents count as additional dollars against the cap as a free agent amount, which in our case is probably way more than we would spend on them in salary after being resigned. They would have to be renounced in order for this amount not to be counted towards our cap but then we lose all rights on the player. This is the free agent amount that each one of our free agents with exceptions is counting towards our cap:

Smith - $5.356m (Maximum = \"Greater of 175% of previous salary or average salary\")(Average salary)

Richard - $512,596 (120% of his previous salary)

Gomes - $13.041m (\"Maximum Salary\")(Maximum salary)

Telfair - $7.687m (300% of his previous salary)

Snyder - $7.075m (300% of his previous salary)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?


Yes it could. Howl to you for finding it. I apologize that I didn't catch that exception before. The most a player can sign for this year would be $442,114. As a matter of fact, that is what the Wolves must have used for Richard last year because the minimum last year for a rookie was $427,163, the same as Richard's salary. This exception is also unlimited so we can use it for multiple players. So, as long as the second round draft pick will agree to the minimum, it would work.
"Whatever happens -- if I get upset at you or you get upset at me, it don't matter -- we're going to be together for a long time here, so we better learn to stick together"
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12751

  • mwithers
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stopnpop wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
You're confusing caps here. There's a soft and hard cap. The Wolves can resign Gomes (and maybe Bassy) and still not hit the hard cap that brings about the lux tax if they decide to keep their 2nd rounders. They are going to get rid of 3 (maybe 4) of their free agents. This has been clear since the beginning of the year. The status quo on a 22 win squad isn't something to lose too much sleep over. Those 2nd rounders are bargain basement players with 1 year deals. They are gold to this front office in that they allow them to either pick a Euro who won't come over for a year or two, trade to a cost-conscious team in the late 1st, or pick a player who can fill a roster spot for a year or two on the cheap a'la Craig Smith and Chris Richard.


I'm not confusing caps, I fully understand the cap situation. The NBA uses a soft cap with a tax at a certain salary amount. The soft cap was at $56m last year like I said and we have $55m in salary right now. Depending on what the salary cap increase is, we only have a few million to spend in additional salaries. While the salary cap can be exceeded under certain circumstances(free agent exceptions, rookie exceptions, mid-level exceptions, etc...), the salary still counts against the cap.

For example, if the cap was set at $59m, we have $4m to work with. That $4m is taken up right now by free agent money used by exceptions until the free agents are signed by us, another team, or renounced. If we resign Gomes to $4.5m a year, we can go over the cap by $.5m but we have then met the salary cap and cannot sign a second round pick other than on the mid-level, if possible. We can still sign a first round pick under the rookie exception but second round picks are not included in the rookie exception. We can also resign Smith, Snyder, and Telfair via early bird and larry bird exceptions but it still puts us over the cap and therefore preventing us from signing others.

Granted, we can draft a Euro and just not sign him and still maintain rights to him until we are ready to bring him over. We can also trade those seconds for a first and use the rookie exception to sign that draft pick.


So does that make it an order of operations issue? As in... the wolves need to sign the rookies THEN sign free agents who have their exceptions.


No, because those free agents count as additional dollars against the cap as a free agent amount, which in our case is probably way more than we would spend on them in salary after being resigned. They would have to be renounced in order for this amount not to be counted towards our cap but then we lose all rights on the player. This is the free agent amount that each one of our free agents with exceptions is counting towards our cap:

Smith - $5.356m (Maximum = \"Greater of 175% of previous salary or average salary\")(Average salary)

Richard - $512,596 (120% of his previous salary)

Gomes - $13.041m (\"Maximum Salary\")(Maximum salary)

Telfair - $7.687m (300% of his previous salary)

Snyder - $7.075m (300% of his previous salary)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?


Yes, Richard qualifies, but you need one year of service so the 2nd round picks couldn't get it.


Actually, it seems that this exception is what they used to sign Richard and Smith to their first contracts. Either that or they had room under the cap to just sign them to the league minimum. I'm guessing that they used this exception though considering that they have been in luxary tax land previously.
"Whatever happens -- if I get upset at you or you get upset at me, it don't matter -- we're going to be together for a long time here, so we better learn to stick together"
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12752

  • stopnpop
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Also, to go back on a point listed before, I think this does become something of an order of operations thing with the 2nd rounders. Depending on who they choose and what the cap is, they could come in under the cap, sign 1 or 2 of the 2nd rounders, still be under the cap and then move on with signing Gomes and the 1st rounder with an exception.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12753

mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?


Yes it could. Howl to you for finding it. I apologize that I didn't catch that exception before. The most a player can sign for this year would be $442,114. As a matter of fact, that is what the Wolves must have used for Richard last year because the minimum last year for a rookie was $427,163, the same as Richard's salary. This exception is also unlimited so we can use it for multiple players. So, as long as the second round draft pick will agree to the minimum, it would work.



That's how it almost always works for almost every second round pick. I mentioned it last summer in my \"Financial State of the TWolves\" FAQ.
Question: "Why do you shoot so many Threes?"

Antoine Walker: "Because there are no Fours."
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12754

  • stopnpop
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mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
pants wrote:
mwithers wrote:
stopnpop wrote:
You're confusing caps here. There's a soft and hard cap. The Wolves can resign Gomes (and maybe Bassy) and still not hit the hard cap that brings about the lux tax if they decide to keep their 2nd rounders. They are going to get rid of 3 (maybe 4) of their free agents. This has been clear since the beginning of the year. The status quo on a 22 win squad isn't something to lose too much sleep over. Those 2nd rounders are bargain basement players with 1 year deals. They are gold to this front office in that they allow them to either pick a Euro who won't come over for a year or two, trade to a cost-conscious team in the late 1st, or pick a player who can fill a roster spot for a year or two on the cheap a'la Craig Smith and Chris Richard.


I'm not confusing caps, I fully understand the cap situation. The NBA uses a soft cap with a tax at a certain salary amount. The soft cap was at $56m last year like I said and we have $55m in salary right now. Depending on what the salary cap increase is, we only have a few million to spend in additional salaries. While the salary cap can be exceeded under certain circumstances(free agent exceptions, rookie exceptions, mid-level exceptions, etc...), the salary still counts against the cap.

For example, if the cap was set at $59m, we have $4m to work with. That $4m is taken up right now by free agent money used by exceptions until the free agents are signed by us, another team, or renounced. If we resign Gomes to $4.5m a year, we can go over the cap by $.5m but we have then met the salary cap and cannot sign a second round pick other than on the mid-level, if possible. We can still sign a first round pick under the rookie exception but second round picks are not included in the rookie exception. We can also resign Smith, Snyder, and Telfair via early bird and larry bird exceptions but it still puts us over the cap and therefore preventing us from signing others.

Granted, we can draft a Euro and just not sign him and still maintain rights to him until we are ready to bring him over. We can also trade those seconds for a first and use the rookie exception to sign that draft pick.


So does that make it an order of operations issue? As in... the wolves need to sign the rookies THEN sign free agents who have their exceptions.


No, because those free agents count as additional dollars against the cap as a free agent amount, which in our case is probably way more than we would spend on them in salary after being resigned. They would have to be renounced in order for this amount not to be counted towards our cap but then we lose all rights on the player. This is the free agent amount that each one of our free agents with exceptions is counting towards our cap:

Smith - $5.356m (Maximum = \"Greater of 175% of previous salary or average salary\")(Average salary)

Richard - $512,596 (120% of his previous salary)

Gomes - $13.041m (\"Maximum Salary\")(Maximum salary)

Telfair - $7.687m (300% of his previous salary)

Snyder - $7.075m (300% of his previous salary)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA's minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.


Could this be used?


Yes, Richard qualifies, but you need one year of service so the 2nd round picks couldn't get it.


Actually, it seems that this exception is what they used to sign Richard and Smith to their first contracts. Either that or they had room under the cap to just sign them to the league minimum. I'm guessing that they used this exception though considering that they have been in luxary tax land previously.


That's right. The FAQ is kind of silent on that point. I think I mistook the 1 year contract for 1 year of service. I double checked it on NBA.com and they can use it. Anyone qualifies and it appears to be there just for roster-filler purposes but it helps with the 2nd round.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12762

  • dreaming71
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Re:Team Needs 8 Hours, 34 Minutes ago Howls: 18
Bassy is 3-5% on his jumper away from being everything a starting point in this league should be. He has an excellent PPR, ast/to ratio, and he is the best perimeter defender on the team. What happened to this squad on the defensive end after he got hurt was problematic...even more problematic than when he was on the court. With 6'7\" at the off guard, 6'9\" at the 3 and 4 and hopefully a 6'11\" or 7 footer at the 5; and with scorers at the 2, 3, and 4, Bassy doesn't need to shoot or finish...he just needs to manage the game

Name one legit starting pg in the NBA who shoots, and finishes as poorly as Telfair. I'm not trying to bury Telfair, but let's not overstate his value. He's a solid backup pg...that's it.

To be a legit starter with his offensive limitations, Telfair would have to be a GREAT distributer, ball handler, and defender. He's a good distributer, and ball handler, and an adequete defender...I can't see him as more than a stop-gap starter.


Dreaming71
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12763

  • stopnpop
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The current version of Jason Kidd, Rafer Alston, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jason Williams are all poor shooters/finishers. I said he needs to improve his fg% by 3-5 points, but he's top shelf in the league with PPR, Ast-r, and ast/to rate. He's always been on crappy teams with poor perimeter shooters. He does have some weaknesses, but he's a far better defender than Foye and he is much more capable of controlling the pace of a game to reasonable levels than is Randy. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Tony Parker, but they have a similar style of play. As long as the Wolves develop a dribble drive threat on the wing to relieve pressure on collapsing defenses, Bassy can run the offense as a starter. He's still only 1 or 2 years older than some of the PGs coming out in this draft. He doesn't need to shoot a lot. All he needs to provide is a solid PPR, dribble drive penetration with both hands, and solid perimeter d. If you bundle those qualities up with a good FG%, Bassy has 3 out of 4 compared to Foye's .250. He should shoot no more than 15 3s per year and push the ball into the lane on about 40-50% of the Wolves' possessions. Are there better points out there? Of course, but relative to what the Wolves have, he's the best option barring Rose in the draft.
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12764

  • mwithers
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stopnpop wrote:
The current version of Jason Kidd, Rafer Alston, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jason Williams are all poor shooters/finishers. I said he needs to improve his fg% by 3-5 points, but he's top shelf in the league with PPR, Ast-r, and ast/to rate. He's always been on crappy teams with poor perimeter shooters. He does have some weaknesses, but he's a far better defender than Foye and he is much more capable of controlling the pace of a game to reasonable levels than is Randy. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Tony Parker, but they have a similar style of play. As long as the Wolves develop a dribble drive threat on the wing to relieve pressure on collapsing defenses, Bassy can run the offense as a starter. He's still only 1 or 2 years older than some of the PGs coming out in this draft. He doesn't need to shoot a lot. All he needs to provide is a solid PPR, dribble drive penetration with both hands, and solid perimeter d. If you bundle those qualities up with a good FG%, Bassy has 3 out of 4 compared to Foye's .250. He should shoot no more than 15 3s per year and push the ball into the lane on about 40-50% of the Wolves' possessions. Are there better points out there? Of course, but relative to what the Wolves have, he's the best option barring Rose in the draft.


Telfair is the best option of a point guard other than Rose but Rose is the only option shouldn't just be a backup point guard.
"Whatever happens -- if I get upset at you or you get upset at me, it don't matter -- we're going to be together for a long time here, so we better learn to stick together"
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12774

  • dreaming71
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mwithers wrote:

The current version of Jason Kidd, Rafer Alston, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jason Williams are all poor shooters/finishers.

Kidd is much better passer than Telfair, Alston is a better shooter than Telfair, Tinsley is a better defender than Telfair, so that leaves us with what's left of Jason Williams as a comparison to Telfair....bleah.

If we don't get Rose, I'd rather give Foye a whole season, or try to obtain a Pg from a team like Memphis, than waste a year with Telfair as our starter.

Dreaming71
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12775

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That certainly is a part-by-part way of looking at it. Here's another:

www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_PER.htm
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Re:Team Needs 3 years, 9 months ago #12776

  • stopnpop
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BTW: I don't think Bassy will be back. I think Richard and Gomes will be the only re-signings.
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