DaddyFatSax posted this in the NBA Playoffs forum, and it intruiged me enough to start this post and hopefully get some good banter going:

"daddyfatsax wrote:

I got a new one. Magic > JKidd > Nash > Thomas > Payton > Stockton...
Too gone to think anymore."

I would like to debate/expand on/analyze this but I don't know where to start...

I think I'm putting Nash lower because he never even made a finals, and plays really bad defense.

But then again, he won league MVP twice.

Other stud point guards of the past few decades would be: Mark Jackson, D. Rose, Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, C. Billups, Deron Williams, Mark Price, Tony Parker, Johnny Flynn, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Randy Foye (okay I lied about 2 of them).

I found this link which lists great point guards and some of their stats: All-time PG Rankings

What do you think? What's your list look like?

BonK wrote:
NOT Will Avery, Marcus Banks, or Jonny Flynn.

BonK wrote:
Stockton, Kidd, and Magic are #1-3 in some order. I'd be okay saying Magic
Kidd
Stockton
Isiah
Payton
Steve Nash
Tony Parker

then you're into guys like

Mark Jackson
Kenny Smith
Terry Porter
Mo Cheeks
KJ
Pooh Richardson (Wolfies homer add-on)

wolfenstein wrote:
Wolfenstein, YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!

KJ HAS to be better than Tony Parker. Think about how good KJ was. And Kenny Smith? Nein. He was not the difference maker that should be in this conversation.

Where is Sam I am? Terrell Brandon? ehh. I'll make some time to think about this and respond to Wolfenstein in the other thread sometime in the next day.

Magic is definitely #1. He has 5 titles for crying out loud. Lots of people consider him one of the Top 10 all-time best players in the history of the NBA.


Here's my list:

Magic
Kidd
Isiah
Payton (One of the best defensive players ever)
Stockton
KJ
Tony Parker
Steve Nash
Mo Cheeks
Chauncey Billups
Cassell!
Mark Jackson
Mark Price
CP3?
Tim Hardaway
Doc Rivers
Kenny Smith
Derek Fisher
Terrell Brandon
Terry Porter


I ended my cutoff at like 1980-ish.

wolfenstein wrote:
I forgot Mark Price, Chauncey, Tim Hardaway, and Doc Rivers. You probably aren't jumping any of those guys past Parker, but I could see moving any of them into the second tier, even to the front of the second tier. Also Pooh was a joke, although he was a family favorite growing up.

daddyfatsax wrote:
Hey, fair enough. I realize that Tony Parker is the weakest of the guys I have in tier 1. And as I just mentioned, tier 2 was just throwing out the guys who get the sniff for the spots after #8 or whatever.

Terrell is in Chauncey territory although he didn't get any rings, Cassell should be in there somewhere (2 titles?), and Kenny Smith only gets consideration because he was the trigger man for Hakeem's title teams. You could make the argument about Parker, and BELIEVE ME, I am not a Parker fan, but you can't deny that he has hit some huge shots and was a big difference maker for the Spurs on a bunch of Championship teams.

KJ was sweet, but never got it done, mostly because he had to play Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, and MJ's Bulls year after year. It's also tough because his best teammate (Barkley) peaked at the same time that Jordan was peaking, and right after Jordan left, you had Hakeem playing on another plane of existence for a couple years, then the rise of David Robinson and the Bulls again.

Stockton didn't have a title but was obviously one of the elite game managers and passers, and was handicapped by a mediocre supporting cast that looked much better than they actually were, simply on account of having the privilege of playing with him.

Stockton had Malone, and who else? Hornacek? Ostertag? Russell somebody? Wasn't there somebody named Russell on that Jazz team? And Shandon Anderson? Other than Malone and Hornacek, who were these guys?

I mean, that's the measure of a point guard, is that playing with Stockton, you watched those guys and actually believed that they could beat Jordan's Bulls. And they very nearly did.

I'll take Cassell as a borderline tier 1 guy, due to his clutch performances over the years and the fact that he was a difference maker in at least one of the Rockets' titles.

KJ vs. Kenny Smith for me is somewhat moot- they're both second tier guys, and I do think KJ has an infinitely less annoying personality than Smith. I'll give KJ the nod.

Magic
Kidd
Stockton
Isiah
Payton
Nash
Parker
Cassell

---

Mark Jackson
Billups
KJ
Mark Price
Mo Cheeks
Rivers
Kenny Smith
Terry Porter
Brandon
Timmy Hardaway
Derek Fisher

Allow me to reorder my list...

The Elite
Magic**
Kidd*
Stockton
Isiah**
Payton*
Nash

---

The Lifetime Achievement Guys
Sam Cassell**
Tony Parker**
Mark Price
KJ
Chauncey Billups*
Mark Jackson
Mo Cheeks*
Doc Rivers
Terry Porter

---

You'd definitely consider them Elite in their primes
Terrell Brandon
Timmy Hardaway

---

The One Trick Ponies.. Whose One Trick Happens to be Winning the Finals
Kenny Smith**
Derek Fisher**
Steve Kerr**


*Won a Championship
**Won multiple Championships

Chris Paul is in there also. Don't know if there's anyone else playing right now with the body of work to consider for this list.

I would put Dennis Johnson in the second tier, too. He was the only PG who could guard Magic in his prime.

Really, Michael Jordan was the point guard of the Bulls teams. If you call him a PG, he is in the top tier.

I don't have the patience or historical knowledge to make a list such as this...but I would say Deron Williams is a worthy addition to the above lists in some capacity.

WallyWorld wrote: Check out Bonk's link... it lists all the PG's.

Nice Wolfenstein, love all of the insight.

I personally think that Chauncey is being sold a little short. The guy is a Finals MVP and played in the conference finals for like 6 straight years or something crazy. He also has one of the best defensive point guards, and a clutch shooter and overall leader.

I don't think Terrell Brandon would have ever been classified as "elite", even in his prime. IMO, he was the classic good but not great player.

It is very tough to size up current players, especially those on the front end of their careers, but the fact that Derrick Rose won an MVP puts him somewhere in this list already I think.

I also think Isiah is historically underrated. 2 time NBA champion and I believe 2 time Finals MVP as well. He also made the all-star game like almost every single season in his career, and was probably a top 5 player in the league for a good 6-10 years.
wolfenstein wrote:

I had Isiah #3!

I agree, he seems to be getting underrated here. I guess you could probably put Rose somewhere on the list, but then where does that stop with current guys? What about Rondo? He won a title and Rose didn't.

I don't think any current young guys deserve it (yet), except CP3 and maybe Deron Williams.

Right now, here's my Top 10 list (I'll keep out all PG's in the "early half" of their careers and point out where I think they are headed at the bottom):

1. Magic Johnson

2. Isiah Thomas
3. Jason Kidd
4. John Stockton

5. Steve Nash
6. Gary Payton
7. Chauncey Billups
8. Tony Parker
9. Kevin Johnson

10. Mark Jackson

Honorable Mention: Dennis Johnson, Sam Cassell, Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Mo Cheeks

Guys in the NBA now who may make this list someday:
Should:
Chris Paul
Derrick Rose

Could:
Deron Williams
Russell Westbrook if he gets his act together
John Wall
RICKY RUBIO!
Rajon Rondo