What I'm wondering is if the governing bodies are worried to challenge China while the games is going on. Maybe once everything is done they'll let the facts come out and strip the medals.

pants wrote:

That's probably the most likely way if/when any retribution happens.

Have any journalists/media actually talked to the girls in question? Or is Cheating China not allowing anyone access or what? Perhaps the girls don't even truly know how old they are?

China is a joke. They would kill off 10,000 people in exchange for a gold medal.

Just last year for the Women's Soccer World Cup in China the Danish coach discovered there were Chinese guys behind a two-way mirror with cameras set up to record their team meeting. There were cameramen at their practices taping them, they'd turn on the sprinklers while they were practicing, and they dug a big hole in the middle of the Dane's practice field. FIFA did nothing about it and Denmark ended up losing. Sad.

That's the problem with international sports, politics are more important than the actual sports and fair competition. The IOC won't do shit to China.

At least the two stud US women got gold and silver tonight in the Women's All-Around! Woohoo, they were awesome! Cheating China got the bronze by being 0.075 points behind for Silver.

In response to your comments on the Women's world cup I would like to clarify a few points for you.

As a soccer player who also stayed at the Howard Johnson hotel during the WC I would like to comment that the Danish team meeting was to take place in the actual hotel. The Danes had asked for use of a room and were told that it would be available to them within a hours notice and upon agreement with the other teams staying there. Moller the coach went down an hour prior to calling the team to set up and was in the room 30mins when he looked behind the mirror and discovered the men (there were no players present at this time), the two men were arrested and prosecuted for tresspass but there was no explanation for their actions as they were not thought to be soccer related. Fifa were notified of this incident and did investigate it at the time the Danes were even offered an alternate hotel. Moller did not tell the players about this and has even stated that they only found out 11 months after the incident.

Moller himself has stated that the hole in the pitch was not an issue that it was in his words \"a pretty good stadium\". The caretaker at the pitch admitted that the sprinkler issue was a error on his part might I note that the sprinklers were on for less than 3 mins.

As for the men filming the training, the men were noticed in a building oppiste the stadium they were not on or near the pitch or stands, they were removed from said building by Fifa officials.

Møller now says that he spoke with Domanski-Lyfors (the Chinese coach who is Sweedish) about the incidents after the game. Neither he nor Eggers Nielsen ( Danish assistant coach) think that Domanski-Lyfors or her assistant coach on the Chinese team, Pia Sundhage, had anything to do with the dirty tricks or surveillance before the game. \"I think Marika is a good coach,\" Heiner-Møller says. \"I like her personally and also professionally. So there was nothing between her and me at all.\"

At this point I'd like to point out that Sundhage is now the US coach.

After a full investigation carried out by FIFA and the local police there was no evidence found to show that the incidents were related to the China team as one of the men was not Chinese and the confiscated tapes had no footage on them. The men who run the Danish soccer federation decided not to pursue the matter further. \"FIFA and our federation agreed it wasn't a sporting matter,\" says Eggers Nielsen. Nielsen went on to suggest that the matter was not taken seriously because it was a womens team.

The Danes played so poorly during their final games because after their first match Moller was suspended after FIFA ruled that he had come into contact with the fourth official while trying to exhort his team in the final minutes of the loss to China. They were left to play their remaining games without a coach, their only win was to the weakest team in their Group which was New Zealand, China went on to be knocked out by Norway in the quarter finals. China at the time of play were ranked 13th in the world whilst Denmark were ranked 16th the other two teams in the group Brazil and New Zealand were ranked 2nd and 20th. Out of the two teams China and Denmark, China were the stronger team and thus deserved a win.

There have been no other allegations made by any of the other teams who competed in the WWC. I had a once in a life time experience there and found the Chinese very accommodating and welcoming.

Rather than accuse the Chinese of cheating lets look at the athletes who have come to the games and been caught doping i.e. Spanish cyclist Maria Isabel Moreno, North Korean shooter Kim Jong Su and Vietnamese gymnast Do Thi Ngan Thuong lets not forget the athletes caught doping prior to Beijing departure thus lessening the same on their nation i.e. American Swimmer Jessica Harding, American sprinter Justin Gatlin, the 2004 Olympic champion in the 100, lost an appeal to overturn a ban for a second drug violation in 2006, Former European 100 champion Dwain Chambers of Britain, Lets not forget about Marion Jones losing her five gold medels who has been banned from attending the Olympics as a coach, official, media member or in any other role.

So that's my two cents worth people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Defeat should be accepted with grace and it was something that the American Coaches did not demonstrate. European papers seem to have been more concerned with the reaction of the American coaches to defeat rather than the issue as to whether or not these girls are underage.

On Iirsh national television coverage Karolyis could be seen and heard commenting to her team as the Chinese took to the floor to compete \"Little babies,” she kept telling her team “Oh, look at the little babies.”

The American girls would laugh about it, laugh at their coach bashing their opponents. Where's the sportsmanship??

What kills the Karolyis isn’t the possiblity that the Chinese would risk the health of their children by throwing them out here before their bones and muscles mature. It’s that the Americans won’t allow the Karolyis to do it, too.

This isn’t a morality play here. In truth, no matter Martha and Bela’s bleating, no one knows how old the Chinese girls were, there is no evidence of it well there is e-evidence but how credible is that? This was a myopic focus of the Karolyis on someone outfoxing them.

“One little girl has a missing tooth,” Martha barked with indignation at the Chinese, although she would offer no name and later admit she “has no proof” of anything.

Later she’d claim, without any substance and lacking facts, that Olympic judges delayed Alicia Sacramone from starting her beam routine in an effort to shake her concentration. This claim was later but was rebuked by their OWN committee.

Alicia ruined it definitely! US would have won if she didnt screw it up she was sloppy and made mistake after mistake.

Credit where credit is due Bela coached Nadia Comaneci to seven perfect 10s in the 1976 Olympics. She was 14.

Where's the praise for the girls who despite their mistakes came second, or the two girls who stole first and second in a very tight individual event? Their crazy coach seems to have cast a shadow on their glory.

I do hope that the American team clean the floor in the forthcoming events and if not I sincerely hope that they accept defeat with grace and ditch the witch hunting tactics because nobody is buying it!

As for not having proof of their age, on a Chinese website it showed one of the girls as being 14 years old according to her birthdate. The AP (Associated Press) found this website and copied the page. Later that day the page was removed by Chinese Officials.

I don't have an article but its on the net. I'm just going off what I remember from reading it. I'm pretty sure you could easily find out about this by doing a quick Google search. So yeah, they ARE cheating. In some respect, that excuses bad sportsmanship... I'm sorry to say. Not that bad sportsmanship is ever a good thing, but cheating is worse.

As for the 1976 Olympics and Bela coaching Nadia... was the age limit rule in place at that time?


Great posts and welcome to the board, even if you do have an opposing viewpoint. Howl for you.

I don't have an opposing view point but lets take into account that internet documentation is easily altered which is why the IOC have dismissed the claims, not sure if it was broadcast in the US but Karolyi stated on an interview that came through on Eurosport that she had no evidence that any of the girls were underage nor had she seen the fore mentioned documentation. To point out e-documents or copies of documents without an original are not valid in any court of law (well here in Europe anyway)

If you have your suspicions you go through the appropriate channels you don't start your complaint off by going crazy on international tv or by having your husband bash any team that have come up against the US gymnasts on international television.

These apparent documents that state He Kexin was 13 whilst registering for the gynastics world cup in October last can obviously be found in Kiev where Kexin would have had to register for the event, offical sporting documentation must be held for a minimum of two years after an event it'd very easy to get hold of the original if the IOC felt the need as the Chinese have no jurisdiction over Kiev!

I've seen the apparent copy of the Chinese e-newspaper article and I think I could have done better myself - the apparent original doesn't contain the name of the journalist or the name of the publication i.e. The China Daily or even the date, where as the one that claims Kexin is 16 has all that information on it.

I've taken a year out after finishing my studies in Medicine and am coaching soccer from my medical knowledge it'd be easy to determine the age range of any of these girls through a physical exam, x-rays and dental records something the US could push the IOC to do if they really wanted.

I'm going to start waffling so I'll finish with saying that as per the Irish Independent stated today (I'd give you the link only you can't view it without subscription) it would be fair to accuse Karolyi of cheating as his negative comments and accusations are bound to have a mental impact on the Chinese competitors.

I'm not America bashing my mother is American I hold dual citizenship, I love my second home most of the time!

Slán go Fóil,
H

Hey man, no worries at all. I didn't take it as \"American bashing\" or anything like that. You are cool... and I always love a great discussion. The thing is, you say its easy to fake a website or whatever. Well... how much easier would it be for the Chinese government to fake a passport? I mean, that would be simple for them.

I'd like to see the official records from Kiev.

I am also surprised there isn't more uproar... but that could happen after the Olympics is over I guess.

My last thought... if all those girls TRULY ARE 16, well then I feel sorry for them. There is no situation where a 16 year old girl should weigh only 68 pounds. That would be unbelievably unhealthy and in that respect the Chinese government is exploiting her.

Your skimming again CW. hniriain is female.

Thank's Mmsland for clearing that I am indeed female also as a matter of interest my sirname is Niriain which translates to Ryan in English.

With regards weight most gynasts are under weight rather than having age restrictions there should be a minimum weight as per height that all gymnasts must meet Shawn Johnson is 4'9 and weighs 90 pounds.
In China’s defense, there are other tiny gymnasts. Japan’s Koko Tsurumi is 4-7 and 75 pounds. Russia’s Ksenia Semenova is 4-6 and 74 pounds. Japan’s team average is just 4-10 and 82.5 pounds.

It's a crazy world I've just been fascinated by all the negative media press surrounding the entire games. I was surprised that Athletes who condemed China's actions within Tibet still chose to attend a sporting protest I guess.

What baffels me is that in the last seven days I have been in Ireland and France and from both countries the official Beijing games website is unaccessible en.beijing2008.cn/ its not worked since the games started which to me is totally bizzare.

Personally I'm finding the basketball more exciting...

I agree the Olympics is not a place to practice politics. It should be where everyone lays aside their differences and competes in athelitics.

That being said, the issue of the Chinese cheating concerning the age of their gymnists is not political. It is an issue of fair play under the rules of the olympic committee that were created for the good of all nations concerned.

I understand that atheletes all around the world are cheating today to gain unfair advantage in competition by using illegal drugs. This is a sad comentary on mankind in general.

The issuse of the Chinese cheating concerning the age of their gymnists is quite different though. This is an issue of a host country diliberatley breaking the rules, not an individual.

It is not arrogant for the Americans to complain out loud about this without the proof of evidence. We are not lawyers filing suits in a court of law. We are just pointing out the obvious. To keep our mouths shut because the Chinese did such a good job of covering their tracks would be a travesty.

It is not our responsibility to keep quiet until some one uncovers proof, it is the Chinese responsibility to remove all suspicion by presenting adequate proof. They have not done that.

mmaland wrote:
My deepest apologies. It is nothing personal, believe me...

mmaland wrote:

Great post. Out of nowhere you come and succinctly recap the entire situation. I think your comment about sums up the this whole fiasco perfectly... especially in regards to any \"poor sportsmanship\" being shown. Howl.

Welcome to the board, hniriain!

I really enjoyed hearing your viewpoints and thinking about the issues you brought to the table...