Sooooo much knowledge being dropped in this thread, I love it. Love it love it love it. These are the types of discussions that are great.

It's 1AM and I'm finally catching up on the board (sigh.) Anyhow, to be fair Daddy, I think I've always said in the forums that I wasn't a huge Foye fan and haven't praised him like some people blindly do (not necessarily people here.) I don't hate Foye as a person or anything like that, but I'm probably one of the more \"anti-Foye\" people around here. Therefore, I feel that I have earned the right to perpetually decree that we should have kept Roy. I'm not saying I'm proud of this fact... I just freakin wish we would have kept him.

I also agree with Old Logo and what he said about Casey. He's a good guy. He's probably a decent coach... IN THE RIGHT SITUATION. The Wolves situation when they hired Casey was the polar opposite of what he should have been coming into as a rookie headcoach. It was doomed from the start. A Van Gundy or Adelman would have been ideal, but they were both still coaching at that point in time. Oh well.

P.S. It's awesome we have two GM's from Simmon's Atrocious GM Summit... or not.

I dunno if this dude saw your thread and \"copied\" it so to speak, and I don't really care about that. What I'm getting at are the classic responses to his initial question. Bascially, he's being derided and ridiculed for even bringing up the subject in the first place!

Wow.


http://www.mnsportsfans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20323

Old Logo - Agree completely with the Casey post. He is a great guy, a good assistant, but was put into a crappy situation. Either way, bad situation or not, Casey was a joke to half of the team. You could see it from the sidelines. At that point, he had to go. Like I said a few days ago, if Wittman has gotten to this point, he's definitely got to go (As if he should be here anyway).

College Wolf - You've held your position. I for one can remember being a little indifferent. Didn't really like either of them

Yes, exactly. It doesn't matter how good a coach you are when the team dismisses you. I think that's happening to Pat Riley right now and he's won 5 championships. (I just went to look up Riley's playoff results...geez. He's won 5 NBA Finals and lost 5 NBA finals. He's taken 10 teams to the NBA finals! That's impressive). But they're giving up on him and that's not good.

I've seen some posts around here about Jeff Van Gundy. I think JVG could work. He's made crappy teams better in the past, but who knows if he's up for coaching anytime soon. I think he's lost all his hair since he took that Knicks job.

daddyfatsax wrote:
Yeah thanks. And yeah, I'm not giving you grief at all... I know that you've been mostly indifferent. Nothing wrong with the \"waiting to see what happens down the road\" approach. If anything, it's better than me for (maybe) jumping to conclusions early in their careers.

TheOldLogo wrote:

JVG would have been amazing when we still had KG. Not sure he's up to a total rebuilding effort though. Perhaps he'd like the chance to put his stamp on a team, and totally develop it from the ground up... but who knows. I wouldn't blame him for NOT wanting to come here.

I just typed an extremely long and in my opinion insightful post, but my computer screwed up and the whole thing got lost. I'll repeat my main points in bulleted form...

- KG + Roy is not and never would have been a championship team. We would have stayed in mediocrity for years

- Having Roy or a good coach this year would just kill our draft positioning

- We're much better off with an injured Foye this year, assuming he comes back 100%, and getting a good coach next year, because we'll be able to get the piece we need in the draft and have a stacked team instead of just a so-so one.

- Casey was in a bad situation, but was still a horrible coach.

- Wittman is a worse coach.

And I just have to add this one analogy because I liked it so much...

Getting Roy last year would have been the same situation as if the Magic had drafted Shaq and then not lucked out against all odds by getting the #1 pick again with their lone ping pong ball. He would've gotten them to the playoffs, but they never would've sniffed the Finals.

The reason the Magic got so dominant so quickly is their back-to-back good picks. Right now with Foye and Jefferson, we've got two solid players who may equal out to a \"young\" Shaq in terms of how they can help us win. Us stinking this year is the same thing as the Magic getting lucky and landing that #1 again. By adding a Derrick Rose to our Foye/Jefferson combo, now we'll be able to really make that run.

Roy/KG or Roy/Jefferson plus nothing or a 9th or 10th pick isn't getting us to where we want to be.

The FOye/Roy thing aside and moving to a new topic momentarily, this is not the same as the Magic. Al Jefferson has no chance of becomming Shaq. Shaq is definitely a top 5 all-time center, even perhaps the best center of all-time and I think his move to LA adequately proved that he made Penny, not the other way around. The Magic could have subbed a lot of players for Penny and that team still goes to the finals. Besides just using Shaq's career as hindsight, let's look at productivity numbers for the Magic, Scott Skiles, and Penny Hardaway pre and post Shaq.

Shaq's team went from 21 wins the season before they drafted him to 41 wins after just his rookie campaign. They made the lottery because they lost the tiebreaker to Indiana, who was also 41-41. Just to show his impact on a point guard, Scott Skiles went from 544 assists in 91-92 to 735 assists Shaq's rookie season. Conversely, Penny Hardaway's assists went from 7.1 assists in 95-96, Shaq's last Magic season, to 5.6 the following season without Shaq. Yes, they got lucky on the bounces, but Al Jefferson and Randy Foye together don't swing 20 wins in their inaugural seasons and, though a Rose/Foy/Jefferson combo should result in more wins, I dobut it will result in 20 more wins next season.

If Randy Foye can average similar stats to Penny Hardaway, or even Nick Anderson, he'll have more than satisfied being a # 6 pick. As it is, Roy is averaging those numbers now.

It's obvious there's definite Roy/Foye camps and that's just not going to change. Roy/KG probably would not have won a title for multiple reasons, several having to do with KG, but Roy/Jefferson would win more games than Foye/Jefferson. It should be noted that for the Wolves to get Rose, they're still going to have to win in the lottery, and they're probably going to need to pick #1 because all of the teams that are going to be in the lottery are going to need a point guard of Rose's calibur.

I'll tell you what won't work: Foye/draft-pick-other-than-Rose/Jefferson.

TheOldLogo wrote:

AGREED.

You are on fire in this thread. Props.

I think Beasely would work with Foye and Jefferson, and I don't think Rose is a lock to go #1. Very, very few PG's ever go #1, and while I think Derrick Rose is a good player, Beasely has a higher ceiling. Remember, teams will pass up a sure-thing for a risk that may pay off better. That's why you have Bogut and Bargiani (sp?) going #1. We DESPERATELY need a point guard and have our forward situation locked up, so Rose is a no-brainer for us. I don't think we'd necessarily have to win the lottery to get him, though.

Obviously Shaq is Shaq and nobody compares to him. It wasn't a perfect example, I admit, and the idea behind the example was probably a little lost. My main point is that if a team does poorly and then automatically grabs a stud in the draft, they ususally don't end up being a championship caliber team.

If the Magic just got Shaq and then didn't get Penny, they probably would not have gotten to the Finals so quickly. Them getting Penny was EXTREMELY fortunate. They win one more game or Indiana loses one more his rookie year and they don't get super lucky in the lottery - it doesn't happen. I was referencing this as the rare circumstance where a team picks up a stud in the draft and does do well. You could say the same thing with Robinson getting hurt and the Spurs getting Duncan. It's just the perfect storm of conincidences.

Look at LeBron - the only reason the Cavs got to the Finals are because the East was so pathetic. They were nowhere close to being the 2nd best team last year and are struggling this season. They aren't close to winning anything any time soon. Iverson and the Sixers were a similar situation, and again, they only got as far as they did coming out of a weak East. Same thing will likely happen with Durant and the Sonics if he gets them to a 8th or 9th pick this year. He'll have no help.

You need more than one star player to win a title. You need two if you've got a mega-star like Shaq, and in most cases you need three.

If we had Roy/KG or Roy/Jefferson, it would be good enough to make us mediocre. It just so happens that having Foye sidelined will increase our chances of adding that third player. Rose/Foye/Jefferson is a combo that may be able to make that leap to championship-caliber someday. And I DO think that trio would be able increase our win total by 20, although at this rate, that could be a 30 win season and nothing to write home about.

For this to work, and perhaps it can, a few things have to happen. (I'm going to move away from Foye/Roy because Foye is who we have, it's still a fun argument, though.)

OK, back to it. For this to work, a couple things have to happen:

1) They need a new coach. You've been pointing it out, I've been pointing it out, everyone has.

2) I think Foye has to be the shooting guard. He has more potential to be a potent scorer than he does a potent distributor. I've stated dozens of times that PG is not his position and Larry Brown is probably the only coach that has taken a borderline shooting guard and turned him into a pure point guard over a small amount of time (Billups)...at least that I can think of off the top of my head. On top of that, I think Foye is a shooting guard, period, and I think the staff's mentality on him being a point guard is going to set back his development as a scorer.

3) Telfair needs to keep improving. I'm starting to be more and more convinced that he could be the guy with better players around him.

3(b)) If Telfair isn't the guy, then they need a different PG either through free agency or through another draft, because Foye's not a PG.

Rose is definitely our guy as I'd prefer not to have Beasely and his \"work ethic\" issues. If we land a top pick we absolutely HAVE to nail it. However, Beasely would still certainly be a help.

I'm fairly confident that Telfair could develop into a competent PG, especially with a good coach.

Totally agree that Foye should play SG, especially since Marko and Sebastian have proved they're capable.

Right now the Wolves #1 need are a PG and C. Getting Rose would obviously be a big help, and it doesn't look like there will be a really good center available at the very top of the draft. DeAndre Jordan could be a possibility if we don't get a Top 3 selection, though.

The nice part is that we have the contracts and picks to work through trades. I just hope the front office doesn't balk at spending the money that's needed to turn this team into a contender.