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TOPIC: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg

Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83117

  • wolfenstein
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Also, you could keep the draft and make every draftee a RFA if you insist on the drama.

Only difference is if I play my cards right and have a ton of cap space, I can still make a run at Anthony Davis even if I don't draft first. But whoever gets his rights would have the chance to match. Interesting because all the sudden you have a high stakes game of chicken because you could potentially screw your rivals by making them overpay for someone... Or you could end up with a blue chipper.

That actually would enhance the system.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83123

  • WallyWorld
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wolfenstein wrote:
WallyWorld wrote:
The sad reality is that we are at a point in the conversation, and reading around when this story trickled around last week, where one of the main justifications for rebooting the system is a form of accountability for poorly-run teams

Here are the well-run teams: Oklahoma City, Miami, Lakers, San Antonio, Dallas....and some recent examples (Boston, Indy, Chicago... and maybe up to 2 more that I forgot...nitpickers: you get the point.). That is about 4-8 teams who consistently have a quality product.

In other words: 20-25 teams in this league are run by people who are bad at their jobs. Altering % weights is not going to change the cesspool of ineptitude, Mafia-like brotherhood of NBA GMing (a brotherhood Kahn is clearly not in, might I add).

I would be curious to do a fan poll of all 30 teams and assess how many fanbases want their GMs ousted. I'll bet it's at least 66%-75% in favor or more. Expectations rise based on relative team success. Look at us, a 25-29 record and it's still a wet blanket atmosphere here 40% of the time.

On topic: You obviously can't give the best teams the top picks. That would of course be ridiculous. For example, you can't punish Cleveland because LeBron decided to leave or the Wolves after the KG deal. You have to allow a reset and losing is the consequence. Equal odds or a 2-3 tiered percentage system for lottery or all teams is likely the only change. But seeing as how the process has evolved over time, we certainly will see things change over the years.

But you totally hit the nail on the head of why my idea is better.

First, the Lakers are not a well-run club. They have a better built in advantage than other teams, being in LA. They have a better and more storied history than other teams. But are they substantially more well-run than, say, the Bulls? No. The Bulls have consistently made better personnel decisions.

Miami is not particularly well-run other than the fact that they had an alpha dog who was buddies with the most talented disappointment player of a generation and his sidekick pussy big man.

San Antonio and Dallas... sure. Oklahoma City, definitely. Throw Chicago in there recently as well, plus Boston for better or for worse.

But here's my point. Other factors are not equal. But the fact that Oklahoma City is succeeding in attracting talent in freaking Oklahoma. With the cast off shell of the Sonics legacy. And some really outstanding players. It can be done.

The difference is that teams need to offer a better product to ALL of their Customers.

Anyone who's done corporate training knows the part of the drill where they prompt the answer, "we have to please our Customers," which is followed by the question, "who are your Customers?"

Then they proceed to demonstrate that in addition to paying customers, your coworkers, suppliers, reviewers, media, PR, advertisers, etc. are ALL Customers in a very real sense. You need to serve them and provide them with a good product.

Right now most of the NBA teams are serving crap to their fans, sure... but what about their coaches, players, advertisers, front office personnel, etc? Sh*t sandwich.

The NBA, for all its popularity, is missing the boat on this enormous opportunity they have. If NBA teams were as well-run as most college programs- and I am talking both the basketball and non-basketball sides of NBA teams (although most college teams don't have a strong non-basketball side, so the analogy isn't perfect), it would be amazingly compelling, and players would be excited to play for their teams, unlike right now, where there are only a handful of people who seem legitimately excited to be where they are. Most of them are in Texas or Oklahoma.

Say what you will about the potential to create temporary disparities in talent in the near term, which I would argue already happens with the FA market and draft system, albeit with a slightly more random and unfair pattern- but a system of "shape up or ship out" tends to be the only thing that motivates excellence. The players have that incentive- why not the Front Offices?

I buy your angle and rationale, I just don't buy the solution.

Draft picks are critical to a rebuilding situation. If you were to suddenly put the worst team in the league and gave them the 30th and 60th pick in the draft (I sorta lost track of what your actual plan is but this situation likely applies) or some other generic 'punishment' for bad teams regardless of circumstance, how can you then expect good GM performance taking a way a critical part of the rebuilding process? They are just going to "turn it on" and suddenly gain this ability to find good players through other means? How? Magic? With no picks or young players to trade to leap forward (what the Wolves should have done about 6 years ago)? It just doesn't really work that way. The lottery by and large makes sense the way it is as a 'worst for first' concept. Not all bad teams are poorly run and there has to be a cycle of change.

....Also, Miami is a well-run organization that has been a consistent winner since the NBA expanded there. They have a very fan-oriented owner and Pat Riley is arguably one of the best GMs of all time. Riley absolutely played a huge role in assembling that team. As did luck.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83124

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I'm all for a class system in the NBA among franchises. But the 'poor get poorer' concept would solidify that identity and practically make it permanent. It's like putting the bottom 10 teams in prison for an extended term. That isn't good at all. That doesn't help any product in the slightest and is not a way to make GM's accountable. Firing them for consistent poor performance and modernizing your department? That is.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83125

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No, see here's the deal. The Bobcats are awful. They are poorly run. But they also have players that are not that good and aren't paid that much. So they would get to plead their case to Mr. Davis and his agent as to why signing in Charlotte is his best play.

Charlotte shouldn't get rewarded for sucking. They are poorly run. That's the whole point.

The entire notion of "rebuilding" is an unnecessary construct created because teams are lazy and their GM can go sip margaritas in Spain wearing short shorts instead of doing his damn job.

Find me a "rebuilding" company in real life and I'll show you someone that probably defaulted on a Government load within the last 4 years.

You don't "rebuild", you do things right and BUILD.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83126

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WallyWorld wrote:
I'm all for a class system in the NBA among franchises. But the 'poor get poorer' concept would solidify that identity and practically make it permanent. It's like putting the bottom 10 teams in prison for an extended term. That isn't good at all. That doesn't help any product in the slightest and is not a way to make GM's accountable. Firing them for consistent poor performance and modernizing your department? That is.

You are assuming that franchises would not wise up and hire smart people.

I mean, this is the whole "socialism is the only alternative to the inequality of corporatism" argument that has been debunked over and over again. Check it out:

If Charlotte continues to suck because they are literally incapable of making good decisions, their ownership will lose money.

If their ownership loses money, they will have to sell.

If they have to sell, someone might buy the team who wants to win.

If the new owner wants to win, they will hire better FO staff and coach.

If they hire better FO staff, they won't make bad decisions with their budget.

If they don't make bad decisions with their budget, they will be able to pay fair money to decent players.

If they are able to pay fair money to decent players, they will win some games and not be a backwards dysfunctional franchise.

If they are not a backwards dysfunctional franchise, someone good will want to take advantage of the opportunity to be the cornerstone of that franchise.

And if they get a cornerstone of the franchise, then they can compete at the top.

We do not live in a static world. People improve when given the incentive to.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83127

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WallyWorld wrote:
I'm all for a class system in the NBA among franchises. But the 'poor get poorer' concept would solidify that identity and practically make it permanent. It's like putting the bottom 10 teams in prison for an extended term. That isn't good at all. That doesn't help any product in the slightest and is not a way to make GM's accountable. Firing them for consistent poor performance and modernizing your department? That is.

I mean, actually what you are saying is exactly what I am saying, only I am arguing that there is no incentive to fire GMs for poor performance if they can constantly and continuously pass off poor performance under the guise of "rebuilding" or "tanking for picks".
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83128

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I get where you are coming from.

But I'd argue strongly that it is not getting 'rewarded'...being rewarded is putting a playoff team on the floor and winning divisions, conferences and championships. THAT'S their reward and that's more than sufficient. Rebuilding teams (usually deliberately) sacrifice all of that for a hope that they can move forward. Players embarrass themselves, would-be careers never develop, coaches get fired, fans turn their attention the WNBA team, etc.

I get making a change, but if it is because of accountability alone, it's a misguided change and a much bigger issue than changing the draft order/concept.

And how can Charlotte ever succeed without getting a really good young player? There is no way. They are basically a fake team with a generic team name with no history in a non-descript market. Same with OKC. It is the only way in many cases.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83129

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So Wolfenstein, are you saying there is a salary cap in your proposed idea or no cap?
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83131

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wolfenstein wrote:
WallyWorld wrote:
I'm all for a class system in the NBA among franchises. But the 'poor get poorer' concept would solidify that identity and practically make it permanent. It's like putting the bottom 10 teams in prison for an extended term. That isn't good at all. That doesn't help any product in the slightest and is not a way to make GM's accountable. Firing them for consistent poor performance and modernizing your department? That is.

You are assuming that franchises would not wise up and hire smart people.

I mean, this is the whole "socialism is the only alternative to the inequality of corporatism" argument that has been debunked over and over again. Check it out:

If Charlotte continues to suck because they are literally incapable of making good decisions, their ownership will lose money.

If their ownership loses money, they will have to sell.

If they have to sell, someone might buy the team who wants to win.

If the new owner wants to win, they will hire better FO staff and coach.

If they hire better FO staff, they won't make bad decisions with their budget.

If they don't make bad decisions with their budget, they will be able to pay fair money to decent players.

If they are able to pay fair money to decent players, they will win some games and not be a backwards dysfunctional franchise.

If they are not a backwards dysfunctional franchise, someone good will want to take advantage of the opportunity to be the cornerstone of that franchise.

And if they get a cornerstone of the franchise, then they can compete at the top.

We do not live in a static world. People improve when given the incentive to.

I get all of this. It just seems like it lessens the opportunities. And the rewards in your scenario are misguided. You act like winning teams aren't rewarded.

All teams deserve the opportunity to compete in a situation where 30 franchise need to make money and serve a fan base (customers). There really is no argument here.

Applying it to the Wolves: We traded Garnett at what was probably the logical time or a year too late. Mired in 3 years of dreadful decisions, we had to reset in order to have any chance of competing in the future. We got a reasonable package for him at the time and had a really big opportunity to rebuild in the draft the past 4 seasons. Opportunity is the operative word. The rest is history. We did build through the draft, but the Wolves FO FUBARed about 30 other moves.

Point being: I'm not sure changing the draft would have made Kevin McHale and David Kahn into these two super geniuses. If your argument is you need to get the right people into GM positions, then THAT is the issue and has nothing to do with changing lottery odds or removing the draft entirely.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83132

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wolfenstein wrote:
No, see here's the deal. The Bobcats are awful. They are poorly run. But they also have players that are not that good and aren't paid that much. So they would get to plead their case to Mr. Davis and his agent as to why signing in Charlotte is his best play.

Charlotte shouldn't get rewarded for sucking. They are poorly run. That's the whole point.

The entire notion of "rebuilding" is an unnecessary construct created because teams are lazy and their GM can go sip margaritas in Spain wearing short shorts instead of doing his damn job.

Find me a "rebuilding" company in real life and I'll show you someone that probably defaulted on a Government load within the last 4 years.

You don't "rebuild", you do things right and BUILD.

I really didn't want to get into the stuff that need not apply at all here...but dude...constantly.

Ever heard of a rebrand? Ever head of a company having a bad year and innovating to move forward? A phone landline company evolving into wireless and internet? A corporate restructure? Constant! That is about as close to replicating this as one can get.
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by WallyWorld.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83137

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But you are talking about rebuilding as it should be, not as executed in the NBA = torching your team and fans in order to try to improve in the future because of the screwed up connection between failure in basketball and success in the draft.

I get what you are saying but I don't think rebranding a failing company is analogous to tanking. Tanking is like Verizon saying "Sprint is so much better than us, it's pointless for us to even throw out a marketing campaign. But in a year, we will be so god-awful that [someone] will force a huge market segment our way!"

I am pretty sure that rebuilding as the Bobcats and Hornets are has no equivalent in the real business world besides companies that suck, fail, and go belly up.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83138

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The draft is the mechanism that rewards sucky GMs. That's the connection.

Eliminating the draft won't make Kahn or McHale geniuses, it will make them much more expensive to continue to employ as failing GMs.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83140

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And also, you have to acknowledge that this would be such a radical change in the performance feedback loop for GMs in the NBA that past performance has no correlation to how things would work. For instance, had the system been in place, there are probably quite a few young players who would have been pounding down the door to come to Minnesota to play with KG in his prime.

In retrospect, wouldn't almost any young player? Even in spite of how poorly the franchise was run?

Likewise, right now, in spite of the fact that the Wolves are a middling team with admittedly weak management, don't you think there are a few really talented college kids watching Rubio on SportsCenter and drooling over the thought of playing next to him and Love for the next 5-10 years?

It's a totally different system so I am not sure I understand the point about trading KG, since that type of situation wouldn't be forced on teams as much because cornerstone players would attract good talent.

And at some point some young kid with an ego and talent to match would say "I want to be known as the guy that lifted the Bobcats out of the cellar and into the upper tier" and would give it a shot. I mean, it happens in college every once in a while where a big time talent goes somewhere small and all the sudden that program gets better.

Bonk, I think this system would work with a cap, which would be one of your control mechanisms to ensure the rich didn't literally get richer. But I suppose it would be valid without.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83141

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I think you are seriously underestimating these guys' desire to win. Losing is not fun. Most of these guys are uber competitive alpha male type people.

If I had the choice between being the starting SG on the Celtics for $2 million a year, or the starting SG on the Bobcats for $4 million a year, it's a not an easy choice but it is something I would seriously consider. Better team, better organization, better city, more exposure, more endorsement opportunities. The list is endless. How many guys choose Boston in this situation? Half? For every guy that chooses to go to the good team, it makes it that much harder for bad teams to compete.

Your rationale is that bad teams should try to be better and then people will go there? That's pretty ridiculous. Most of the bad teams out there are poorly run, that's why they're bad. Under the current system, it's already hard enough for small market teams to compete. You have to string together a bunch of smart moves, and even one mistake can derail everything. Just think about how much harder it would be under your system. For every lottery pick that chooses a playoff team over a bad team, the gap gets that much wider.

Big market teams don't need to be particularly well run. And if they are, it leads to championships. The Knicks have been one of the worst run organizations over the past 10 years, yet Melo, Amare, Tyson Chandler, etc all want to be there and the Knicks are constantly a big story no matter how bad they are.

I don't think it's too hard to see that your system would lead to a huge divide between the haves and have nots. There would be no hope for the fans of those teams and attendance would plummet. These teams would pile up massive losses within a period of only a couple of years and would have to either move or fold completely. That's how the real world works. Bad companies go out of business. The same thing would happen here.
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Re: Tanking is the Top of the Iceburg 1 year 1 month ago #83144

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The point about competitiveness is valid, but at the same time, how many guys want to go sit the bench or play 10-15 minutes for their entire career?

I mean, you almost saw Derrick Williams melt down because he was gathering splinters so much, and he's a rookie.

Part of being competitive is wanting to win while you are actually playing and contributing. Not everyone has the heart of a Mad Dog.

I think you'd be surprised by how many players wouldn't sign up to be front runners. You see it in Free Agency every year. Lots of guys want to forge their own path.

Plus remember that finances would still factor in. So some bad teams would still be able to throw WAY more money at a good player if they wanted.
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