BonK wrote:
For real? Interesting.

Jamison did what he did best for much longer than Wallace. Wallace in his prime was better than Jamison and contributed a skill that's much harder to replace. He was at that super-rare Mutombo level where he could change the game without doing much on offense, but man, it didn't last very long. Like, 2-3 years? Jamison was a good scorer and decent rebounder for almost a decade, right? I think everyone forgets how solid he was because they just remember old immobile Jamison who's been hanging around these last 4-5 years (and who, by the way, continues to score about 17 ppg).

I liked Wallace's game for the few years where he was really elite, but it's a hard sell to say he's had a better career overall than Jamison. I won't rip you for it, I think both players had decent careers and if you put Wallace ahead of Jamison or vice versa I'd kind of shrug and say, "okay."

Wallace did get a ring though, so there's that. I don't know, it's not super cut and dry.

I read everything you just wrote and am basically nodding my head in full agreement. I just think that makes Wallace's legacy > Jamison's legacy, so I guess it just comes down to us defining successful careers in different ways.

To me Wallace's was better because you can say:
A: Starting Center on a championship team.
B: Defensive Player of the Year several times.
C: Leading rebounder in the league several times.
D: All-NBA team selectee.

He was THE BEST on one side of the court for a number of years. That matters more to me than a guy putting up good but never great numbers (and making a good but not great impact) over a career.

Like you said, agree to disagree. It's all good. I like a good hypothetical debate sometimes too.

I mean, if you were the Wolves and could trade young Jamison for young Wallace, you would definitely do it.

But if you were the Bobcats and you had Wallace and could trade for Jamison, I'm inclined to think you would have to do that too- because the Bobcats have zero competent and consistent scorers in their frontcourt right now, and they have guys like MKG who can make plays on D and rebound. Remember that when Ben Wallace was most effective, he was playing next to Rasheed, who was a volume scorer who scored from all over the place.

See where I'm going? Just making the point that it's not so black and white as "Jamison sucks" simply because he's outlasted almost everyone else he came into the league with (besides Nowitzki and Paul Pierce, he looks pretty good for the rookie class of 98). He was a good player back in the day, and still gets things done.

Just looking for some respect for my man Antawn. He was a beast at UNC and got it done in the league for years.

Interesting philosophical question, Bonk: can someone have an inferior career but a greater legacy?

Vlade Divac vs. Karl Malone. Malone was one of the best all time PFs but he didn't exactly revolutionize the game. Meanwhile the league is literally full of Euros who developed their back to the basket games and post passing skills watching Divac and the Lakers (later the Kings) and many of those same big men may not have been here if not for Divac (and a few others, but Divac was among the most recognizable).

Still, not even the drunkest CW would argue that Divac had a better career than the Mailman.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

Another extreme hypothetical: would you trade Dikembe at the height of his powers for Karl Malone straight up? Kind of a similar but more extreme version of the Ben Wallace-Antawn Jamison trade scenario.

PS since I'm not about to get up at 3 am to watch our future T-Wolves and since the internet seems to have swallowed up any highlight footage of China vs. Russia, I intend to start my plan of filling the rest of the summer with hypothetical historical trade scenarios.

On the block right now: Malone for Mutombo. Thoughts?

Ben Wallace was defensive player of the year 4 times. The only other player to do that is Dikembe Mutombo. His career was a lot better than you are giving him credit for. He had 7 really good years, all with the Pistons. He was dominant on defense.

Jamison isn't even close to being on the same level as Ben Wallace. It would surprise you how many guys have made 1 or 2 all star games and didn't really have very impactful careers overall. The list of 20 point scorers is staggering. Guys like Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes among many others. Shareef Abdur-Rahim was a 20 point scorer 6 years in a row and made an all star game.

wolfenstein wrote:
Nobody is better than Mutombo. He is the greatest human ever, forget basketball player. From his interviews, to playing at age 57, to the finger wag, to his charity. He is that dude. And Karl Malone impregnates teens. So f*ck this hypothetical. Change it to Gnarls Barkley.

By the way, you are absolutely shitting me by saying Jamison might have been better than Ben Wallace.

daddyfatsax wrote:
DPOY 4 times??? Really? I guess I missed that. If that is the case then I am definitely wrong. I only remember Wallace dominating between like 2003-2005 and then getting traded and falling off the face of the earth. Maybe I'm misremembering.

Still Jamison had a nice career.

His first year on the Bulls was very good too.

I love D, but 40% from the line? Come on now. DPOY or not... If Ben shot even 55% you'd be able to sway me. But he literally has been a liability on offense his entire career because he can't knock down a stationary 15 foot repeatable shot. Agree to disagree.

Who had the better career, Paul Pierce or Dominique Wilkins?

wolfenstein wrote: Totally agree with BonK.

Defense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offense.

daddyfatsax wrote: WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTOMBO??!??!!?

wolfenstein wrote:
Now you are picking nits. Wallace was simply superb. He was crazy, crazy good about 8 years ago. I remember watching him and thinking he should have won the MVP award (which I think he may have been close).

Jamison was a nice scoring forward, there is no disagreeing, but BIG BEN was an anchor, behemoth, stud-beast of a man. Ibaka on steroids. Let others do the scoring. Shaq also couldn't shoot free throws or hit a shot beyond 8 feet. Better pass on him.

Sometimes I feel that around here, from many people, if a player has a single weakness he is passed on. Not everyone is a brilliant all-around player. I can only think of 4 players who were good at every single facet of the game: LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and MAYBE Jordan if you can get past his long-range shooting deficiencies. KG could be on this list.

daddyfatsax wrote:
My absolute favorite Mutombo moments were his reactions when he was a spectator at dunk contests. I tried to find a youtube mix of them but came up empty. Someone should make a video of them.

WallyWorld wrote:
Not sure you left out my boy on purpose.