You all are fycking going IN on these threads.

The following players cannot be judged by Wolfenstein: Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Ron Artest, Rodman, KG, Battier, Rasheed, Gary Payton, Zo Mourning, Kirilenko, Rubio, and Tony Allen.

Wolfenstein doesn't care about defensive people (in my Kanye West "George Bush doesn't care about black people" voice).

What's hilarious DFS is that I am all about Defense and I probably overcompensate for that when judging careers. Like "I love Mutombo irrationally, but that's probably because I overvalue defense, so I'll dial him back a few notches on my NBA totem pole."

Best post defenders in recent memory in the pros (post 1990): Olajuwon, Mutombo, Robinson, KG. Second tier: Mourning, Wallace, probably Howard. Third tier: Ewing, Rodman, Ibaka (still young), Luc Longley (kidding). Apparently Theo Ratliff belongs in here, but I don't remember that part of the 2000s.

Best perimeter defenders: Payton. Jordan, Pippen, probably Kobe (although it drives a stake through my heart to admit it). Tier 2: Dumars, Kirilenko, Stockton, Battier. Tier 3: Alvin Robertson (what? that's right, I said it), Tony Allen, Iguodala maybe (I haven't been following him long enough to know what his perimeter D was like before last year when all the irrational trade rumors started).

Disqualified for being an evil cheating son of a bitch: Bruce Bowen.


Just don't ask me to lump those guys in Bill Simmons style with guys who played so-so D, because I can't be fair.

PS anyone who says Stockton wasn't a SOB on D doesn't remember 96-98 playoffs very well. He was borderline cheapass, but he got the job done. Nobody liked playing against him.

Artest... a decent defender when he wasn't being a total asshat and elbowing guys in the ear. Wrong sport, definitely should have been a pro wrassler.

Sheed... solid defensively but offensively a total high volume bad shot taker who was talented enough to get away with it sometimes. The fact that he was a solid defender makes him a better career player than Jamison, but man... he took a lot of bad shots.

Rubio is awesome. He is GP combined with Nash combined with Jordan's killer instinct and Magic Johnson's flair for the dramatic and ability to bring a team together. The G.O.A.T. period.

Pretty sure Rodman is one of the best defenders ever, and should be in Tier 1.

This is gigantic, and has a bunch of parts you have to keep reading, but it's great. At least, it's great from what I remember reading it two years ago. I could be wrong:

The Case for Dennis Rodman, Part 0/4—Outline

Rodman has got to be one of the best defenders of all time. Could really guard any position. Always was tough to choose b/w him and KG for me

Rodman was not a good perimeter defender. His post defense was good but in my opinion overrated because his rebounding was elite and because he fouled a lot (but the NBA, particularly at that time, was reffed like WWF Wrestling and he could get away with a lot of those fouls). Also he never had to guard Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, etc. The best guys he guarded were Malone, Barkley, and Shaq (because young Shaq had no post moves other than knock you over and dunk). Rodman was good at drawing charges in the post but mostly because he would go from leaning on guys full on with his chest and two hands to "pulling the chair" and backing off and getting knocked over. They should not allow you to push on guys from behind, that is a foul.

People repeated that Rodman was the best defender ever so many times that it became true. I watched most of his prime with my own two eyes and he was a very good post defender, just not in the Olajuwon/Mutombo/Robinson/KG echelon. Period.

Rodman could defend any position? RU serius? Are you getting him mixed up with Pippen?

No Duncan? Not a versatile defender but one of the best ever down low. Protected the basket better than most players ever.

Artest is tier one. Who knows how Pippen, The Glove, Jordan, etc. would be with these new handcheck rules. Artest is one of the few players that completely locked you up on the wing in his younger days.

Not sure on Rodman. I'll have to have one of my ol school sessions of watching Rodman film again for 2 weeks straight.

Lastly, don't sleep on Sheed. He was a better one on one defender than KG or Duncan for a few years in his prime.

Kobe Bryant in the top 4 perimeter defenders of the last 20 years? Get out of here with that!!! No. Way. I get so worked up when Kobe continually makes these All-NBA defensive teams off of reputation alone. His D for the past several years has not be great. And before then it was never ever 1st tier. I don't get why so many people think that. I think Kobe falls under your "so many people have said it so it became true" theory you have about The Worm.

I also think Artest is first tier. And I think The Matrix should be in one of those tiers, along with 03-04 Trenton Hassell

Big Howl to Wolfenstein for creating his list and getting yet another good debate rolling.

daddyfatsax wrote:
Old broken ass Duncan has wiped my memory of adequate defensive Duncan.

Artest... I honestly don't remember. But I stand by my WWF comment. Dude should be wearing a mask and bouncing off the ropes.

Kobe... I hate him, but he's one of the tougher matchups in the league. He hacks, sure... but it's not like he's the only one that does so. He never karate kicked some doof in the face, that's for sure.

Wow Kobe, really?!? There's no way he's a great defensive player or Tier 1 or whatever you want to call him. He's certainly above average/good... but not great.