Yeah, I forgot about Dennis Johnson, he was at the early end of this list along with Mo Cheeks and Doc. Give him the Lifetime Achievement Award, I suppose.

Maybe within 4-5 years I'd be ready to throw Deron Williams on my list. Chris Paul has been so good and is so competitive that he makes my list. Maybe he's this generation's KJ, who knows- but he's probably in "in his Prime" mode right now because his career isn't over. Too early to say whether he's a "lifetime achievement award" guy or one of the greats.

If you're going to throw Williams and Rose on the list, it can only be at the Terrell Brandon/Tim Hardaway level- because we don't know who else will get there.

I'd also argue that Penny Hardaway qualifies for "Elite in his Prime" status. Before injuries took him away from the game.

I could be persuaded that Chauncey deserves to be up in the Tony Parker/Sam Cassell range. Again, I don't think there's nearly as much separation once you get past the guys who are obviously going to go down as all-time greats.

BonK wrote:
Good stuff, I like this a lot. Much better than the way I did my list (lolz.)

Payton should be higher though (one of the best defensive players ever!); and Nash should be lower (no titles, plays zero defense and never did, and definitely the most overrated multiple MVP winner ever.)

College Wolf wrote:
Kidd does more- outstanding rebounder, better passer, great defender. Stockton also was a better defender than Isiah in my rememory and was more of a pass-first guy.

I missed most of Isiah's early and most impressive years. We weren't a Pistons family, because my folks didn't want us to be throwing Laimbeer style dirty elbows and hip checks during YMCA ball or anything. I remember his championships, and I guess maybe the reason that I have Stockton and Kidd above Isiah is that 1) there wasn't much D played in the 80s; 2) Isiah's teams were way deeper than Kidd's or Stockton's; 3) Isiah was a terrible GM which has tainted my memory of his game.

I could be persuaded into Isiah at #2 or #3. You guys who put Kidd above Stockton are tripping. If he grinds out another couple great years, I'll be open to it. The idea of Stockton as only the 4th best PG of the last 30 years is somehow offensive to my basketball purist sensibilities.

wolfenstein wrote: Haha, that's understandable regarding your way of thinking. I'm not going to rip anyone for their own personal lists here. Maybe a few friendly discussions, but overall I think we all agree on the general order of these guys.

As for Kidd vs Stockton. Kidd's got better numbers. And he just won a title. And he was/is a better defender. Stockton had less overall talent on his teams, and he is the all-time assists leader, but I don't think that is enough to put him over Kidd.

College Wolf wrote:
Have not Paul, Rose and Deron already done enough to be past Mark Jackson? He was never a build around me type of guy.

College Wolf wrote:
Definitely agree. This is all very subjective anyway, and everyone has their own methods to determine a players historical value.

Although Stockton is the career leader in assists (and steals?), I personally feel that Isiah and Kidd made greater impacts overall. Isiah won 2 titles & title MVPs. He was also kind of overshadowed due to being in the same era as Bird/Magic/Jordan, IMO. Stockton wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Like I said above, agree to disagree. I am loving this conversation.

BonK wrote:
Aha, but isn't the hallmark of a good point guard the ability to elevate guys around him to play better than they would otherwise? In other words, in his best years Steve Nash's Suns seemed stacked with Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas, James Jones, and believe me, even though that roster seems somewhat underwhelming now, at the time you thought the Suns were stacked 2 deep at every position. And it was because they all looked better because Nash was so good.

What I'm saying is, while Karl Malone was good, do you think he'd have been nearly as good if he hadn't had Stockton feeding him 10 points every game on easy baskets? That and his free throw shooting pretty much had him set until he was old and had to develop that post up fade away jumper.

What I mean by underwhelming here is that it now looks like Joe Johnson, Amare, Nash, and a bunch of middling/washed up role players. In 2006, they were formidable.

Ya'll are spitting knowledge, again. Reading this thread has made my evening. Lots of eye opening opinions.

I have a better appreciation for Nash and Stockton after reading this.

Check me out for a minute...Imagine part of the reason why Magic was so good. He was huge. What if Lebron decides to switch to the point this offseason? it would fit his pass first mentality. He'd have to change his game, but it would work...I think he should switch to PF and they should trade Bosh, but that's for another day.

GP is underrated by everyone except CW. Kidd is better than Stockton, mainly because he didn't wear short-shorts.

daddyfatsax wrote:
I'd trade LeBron to Orlando for Howard straight up. Cuz LeBron has some mental block and disappears when the pressure is on. Either that or he made a killing betting on the series he quit on.

Orlando would do it in a second if they think they are losing their big guy and Miami would have a better team with Howard and their fans would still be very enthusiastic. Wade must be pissed at Lebron for his shrinkage at crunch time.

But I digress...PG's I like the list and would put Gary Payton above Steve Nash but that's my personal preference and am probably in the minority here since Nash has 2 MVP's. I just enjoyed watching GP play "D" and get in peoples faces and heads. I love defense and Nash has little of that.

daddyfatsax wrote:
¡Viva la nuthuggers!

Here's the counterpoint to your point about LeBron:

wolfenstein wrote:
Touche! I must have been belligerently drunk a few hours ago. You win.

Magic was SO good. He never would have folded in the Finals like LeBrominique.

wolfenstein wrote:
That's an insult to Shawn Marion. He is legit, and was even more legit back then.

BonK wrote:
You're right in a way, 2006 Shawn Marion > 2006 Joe Johnson. I guess I was just pointing out that the 2006 Suns seemed deeper than they were because everyone on the floor was a weapon playing with Nash.