Ummm... this would never work (no offense to you Sanyarin or anyone else.)

What is the time difference between the West Coast USA and say, Madrid? Wouldn't most players DREAD getting traded to Europe? I don't see how this could pass.



http://au.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/526193/nba-aiming-set-europe-report

No offence taken, but what exactly do you mean by...I guess you have noted that many European (and other international) players already play in the NBA, while many College boys look for their money here in Europe. So where is the special misfortune in playing in Europe?

I will already open an escape door for you : You probably mean that whoever plays with the European expansion team is among those who will have to travel the most from all other teams...

But I totally agree with you. This is a really stupid idea for which there basically isn't any real need. We have our own B-Ball leagues which are quite good and don't need any help with that. But I would like to see an NBA team in Vancouver again, or in San José or maybe Mexico City or something equally close to the U.S.A. .

Oh, and can someone please forward Mr. Stern my looong explanations on why Basketball plays no important role in Germany? Berlin? NBA team? No way would this work from an economic standpoint. And he should also read the Article by Chris Sheridan he recently wrote. I don't know if he understands that sports has a completely different, more fanatic culture here in Europe.

Sanyarin wrote:
Yeah, that is correct. I didn't clarify very well. I didn't mean that players would dislike Europe for what it is... I did mean it in regards to traveling, as well as uprooting families of older players. I think everyone would greatly dislike having to travel overseas for basically every road trip. Also, I would think some of the older veteran players would hate having to uproot their families and whatnot and go live overseas just to play basketball, even though they probably lived in the USA their entire life while playing in the NBA. It would definitely be easier for rookies and guys coming into the league, but I think it would be very, very hard on some of the older, established players.

Great point about already having leagues in Europe... why would an expansion like this be necessary? Very weird to me.

Just kidding - I know you meant it that way !

Globalization at its finest.

I don't think this is feasible, but David Stern has been known to be a very progressive leader for this league, and this doesn't surprise me at all. Frankly, I trust him... I just wonder how realistic this is.

I almost think you would need to have a European Conference, not a division. Have every team in the NBA go on maybe two road trips through Europe a season... and have them play every team in Europe on the way through. They would have to seriously consider cost-effectiveness to make this work, but it's the NBA - I bet they would do it.

Also, Sanyarin... I've read your stuff about Germany, but don't you think bringing an NBA franchise to Berlin would actually stimulate basketball in your country? It might not be profitable for the first couple years but if it succeeded in popularizing the sport...

@ TrulyRaNd0m
(difficult nickmane to type...luckily, there's copy & paste )

First of all, thanks for mulling through my long and cumbersome posts. Every reader is highly appreciated .

To your argument: Yes, that is indeed an interesting point. But having given it some thought, I would like to respond to it with a few notes of my own, which also have to be put into the plan...most of all, I want to point out that I don't think, bringing an NBA franchise to Germany, especially Berlin won't be benefitial to basketball here to some degree (which I can't estimate if high or low), but I believe it just wouldn't work out from an economical standpoint.

1.
I am not so sure that you can generate long time interest just by putting something completely new and foreign somewhere. Of course, the human nature is a curious one and they might get interested...but only for a short time. If even in the U.S.A., where Basketball has a true tradition and is one of the major sports already, public support and revenues are dwindling fast in some cities (recent example: Memphis) and you hear so much about relocation, how should that work down here, where basketball isn't that much recognized?

2.
Of course this whole franchise thing had to be abolished in Europe anyways. That's not how it's done here. You have your local club which has been in the same city since hundreds of years and if you are a fan, you are a die hard one, just like your fathers and grandfathers and like your children and their children will be. But if a European knows that \"his\" team could be moved and has no real commection to his city. He won't give a sh!t about it.

3. This is especially so, because the European - and especially the German - does not like to travel much. That might sound (again) strange to you, while Germany (and other European countries) are smaller than many of your states, but even the most popular German soccer clubs do not pull fans (meaning: not more than a few hundred) from more than 100 kilometers afar. That might also be because Europea has such a dense population. The next 1st league club is always no further than 150 km at max. And once you have to move elsewhere but stay true to the team of \"your\" city, you just don't travel. And of course...the bandwagon jumpers who just cheer for the successfull the team won't travel at all, since they aren't true fans anyways. So you just need to put the teams in the REAL big cities (like Berlin) to generate some revenue.

4.
This is a little bit different than in other European countries, but in Germany, you would never be able to take the same prices as in the US. No way. The German fan and to some degree that's true to other Europeans, is used and expects to pay his 10-15 € (roughly 15-20 $) for a standing room in one of the soccer arenas where he has reasonably to very good good sight on the field and can get engaged with other die hards in screaming, singing, chanting, jumping, playing music and getting freaked out about the game. And although there are plenty of seats in the stadiums, most of them even courtside cost no more than 30-50 € (44-72 $). NO WAY IN HELL would you get any German to pay the amounts of money you pay in the NBA for some nosebleed seat under the roof. That's not our culture...

And even if the prices are reasonably higher (for soccer, that is!) in other European countries (but still far below NBA tickets), they benefit from the fanatic fans and their attachement to their local club, which a new NBA franchise could not claim for itself.

5.
That has to do with the fact, that the European fans understand themselves as part of the game. When we go to games, we are not going to a concert or to the movies to sit there and be entertained like David Stern has made the NBA into. We are living, breathing and participating in the game. We scream and chant and sing to push our team further and further. Sometimes, which are really bad habbits, we will light fireworks or throw objects on the field or even after players or referees. We believe it's our godgiven right to take part in our local club's history, because normally, you will also be a member of your local club anyways and therefore you expect to go in there for a very reasonable price, since you are part of it and the club also - to some extent - belongs to you.

6.
More factores to general audience numbers: Although there are plenty of B-Ball fans in Europe and even in Germany, you won't get them all together in one place, because of their reluctance to travel to some club that is not even attached to their community. Here in Germany, interestingly and except for Cologne and Berlin, most 1st and 2nd league B-Ball teams that are able to sell out their home games (2nd league teams usually never fill even half of the seats) are located in smaller towns that do not have a soccer team, so you can think this was only vicarious satisfaction. And \"selling out\" in this context means at the highest 3.000-5.000 fans, even in Berlin and Cologne. In other, more basketball crazy countries, there you might still get only 10.000 fans at an absolute max into a hall. Just not enough support when you also consider the reluctance to travel.

7.
What I would also like to repeat: If those fans actually interested in basketball are already closely attached and enamored to their local club, at most times to a point where they are willing to unleash violence on everyone slighly mocking it...how can you put some foreign NBA team in exactly the same city and expect the true sports fans NOT to hate against the new team? No one of those fans, who are actually enjoying B-Ball and are connected to a existing team would go there because they rightfully fear it would steal revenue and therefore success from the team they feel is like family to them!

This just does not make any sense at all.

8.
So therefore, the new location of a European NBA team can only be a huge capital where hopefully is no original B-Ball club already where you believe to be able to create some sort of \"entertainment culture\" with the games instead of \"sports culture\". But not that I can only imagine London fitting that bill (and the English might be the only ones LESS interested in B-Ball than the Germans), it would be still difficult to establish that culture if you don't take extremely low prices. When a ticket to the cinema costs 10 bucks and a seat at a soccer game (where also some not-so-die-hard fans go for entertainment as well) still costs only 30...why pay at least 80 for a sport you have never been interested in but you can't see from your seat anyways??

9.
And even if Stern was able - which I HIGLY doubt - to create another market of customers looking to buy entertainment instead of sports experience in one of the big Capitals, the team would surely be crappy for years if not for ever, because...
a) expansion teams in general suck for a few years
b) as CW has pointed out, it would be difficult to aqquire top notch free agents, anyways.
c) every team in Europe would (due to all the factors named above) always be a \"small market team\", which does not have the money to bid into the tax or even max out under the tax.
d) the team would need to compete with the existing european leagues - in which there also can be made a decent amount of money for a player - for European talent.
And if your team is going to suck for eternity, why bother paying high money for entertainment if even the visiting (good) U.S. team does not need to go to even 85% to beat them? So much loosing can only be endured by true fans, and those such an European NBA team will never have.

That's why I believe, NBA in Europe...just won't work out. It just won't last long enough economically to change anything in German or even European reception of Basketball.

The only way this might have the slightest amount of working out would be to somehow integrate the leading European clubs with a great fan base into the NBA, but from the European standpoint, I would consider that simply impossible from a political and from an organizational aspect.

Another note:

This (meaning: European sports culture) might indeed and really scare some of the American Players used to the rather peaceful NBA live away from playing for a European team or even coming to Europe as an opponent.

How about risking an Auburn Palace Incident every night? How about not being heckled by a few loudmouths from the front seats, but being taunted by thousands chanting the worst personal insults you can think of for minutes and minutes? How about having to sit on a bench that is protected with security glass while you hear objetcs like heated coins thrown from the ranks constantly hitting against it? How about knowing that, if you are the away team or even the loosing home team, you better keep your route to and from the arena as secret as the place you will sleep this night because the least you have to fear is that fans will make noise outside to deprive you from sleep, if not actively attacking the team bus or the houses of players? How about knowing that while you play, urban riot troops of the local police are trying to seperate violent fan groups fighting in the streets?

Many former US College boys have adjusted to this life, but they made this by choice. I don't know what LeBRon and Kobe and 'Melo and Tyronn Lue and Kyle Korver and Udonis Haslem would say if they had to endure this twice a year by force...I know that Artest would love it, but that's not the point...

And of course, it's not that bad all of the time (except for the insulting chnats). Actually, most of the games go down in a mannered way. But when people are so fanatically and emotionally attached to teams, it can happen any time at any game from one second to another...

College Wolf wrote:
I think the time difference is +5 hours isn't it.

Without wishing to repeat anything Sanyarin said in his excellent post, there are a number of reasons this won't work, the most important one being the concept of a \"franchise\" really doesn't exist beyond the US. As Sanyarin noted, the clubs sports fans follow tend to have substantially history and as a result are part of the fabric of the community.

Travel becomes the biggest issue, particularly if you are a West Coast team. The league could end up sending some Pacific teams on 10-15 game roadtrips and the Euro teams may play 2 or 3 very long road trips.

Difficult to say something meaningful about the time difference, since both Europe as America do have multiple time zones, so I will give some examples, showing what's the clock at different European capitals at the same point of time.

USA PST: 05:00 am
USA MST: 06:00 am
USA CST: 07:00 am
USA EST: 08:00 am

---

London: 13:00 (01:00 pm)

---

Berlin: 14:00 (02:00 pm)
Madrid: 14:00 (02:00 pm)
Paris 14:00 (02:00 pm)
Rome: 14:00 (02:00 pm)
Stockholm: 14:00 (02:00 pm)

---

Helsinki: 15:00 (03:00 pm) -> That's where I am these days

---

Moscow: 16:00 (04:00 pm)


I have not checked how this might be affected by Winter- / Summertime which all European countries use and some or to my knowlegde most U.S. states do, but although I know there is some difference between how it is used in the US and in Europe, I never cared to figure out what. If you're interested, check out at wikipedia ! But as far as I know, it's basically the same only that it is changed at slightly different days here and over there, so no big deal.

Here's more:


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/02/15/weekly.countdown/index.html

First of all: Shame on me. I recall it was Ian Thomsen who wrote the good comparative point about American and US Basketball, not Chris Sheridan, as I said in one post...

But on issue:
I have read this article earlier today, and allthough I like Ian Thomsen because he has naturally a much better understanding of European Sports than most American sports writers, but if this is actually his opinion (which I assume) and not some sort of report what everybody thinks, he still has something to learn. He also mades some good observations I have also made, like how difficult - I say impossible - it would be to sell tickets at NBA level prices, especially with expansion teams being mostly roadkill for the first years. But in response to his points:

5. He can't afford to wait.:
Maybe, may not be. Who else is supposed to move into those arenas he's mentioning? There simply is no sport in Europe that would need such big halls. And even if, why not sharing it with them. And the idea of a competing Basketball brand? Seriously, no way, because as I said, not enough audience. If not for the NBA and not even for the traditional local clubs, which according to Mr. Thomsen can't get it done on their own anyways...how for a completely new thing?

And he speaks of new revenue...where should this come from? Just because the NBA decides to throw its holy light on us like a missionary to the heathen?

4. Stern doesn't need to create five European teams all at once.
But he should. Leavig aside all the other issues I named above and assumed this NBA thing could work out.

And sorry that I bring this prejudice up (I know you aren't all that way), but what gets Europeans most annoyed about the US is that \"you\" are assumed to always think only from your perspective without even trying to see any issue from ours as well - \"Where we are, there is up and the way we do is best\". And exactly from this issue suffers Mr. Thomsen here.

He thinks about oh the poor visiting teams that need at least three teams to make the flight over the pond. What about the three European teams??? If there was no true European conference and they would play in the Eastern Conference, what would THEIR road trips to the U.S. look like? 30 games?

And his last point: NO WAY the franchise idea would ever succeed in Europe. You can't just relocate a team from A to B. Do this just once and even in the city you come to you will be dispised and hated as a soulless traitor only craving for money. That's just not how we think and a true sign Mr. Thomsen (of whom I have a really high opinion usually) still has not fully grasped the European's mind.

3. Nationalism isn't the millstone it used to be.:
That's true to some degree. But even more the fans identify not with the nationality of a player, but with the way he stands true to the team. And even more, even more and even, even, even more they identify with the team that has - like I said before - been in their town and their community for ages and of which they know it will not go away until hell freezes and the Sun will turn into a red giant and swallow the earth, once more showing, why the franchise system just won't work out.

2. All-Star weekend will build interest.:
Simply: NO. Sorry, but he again transplants american cultural wisdom to Europe and that's just not how it's done. Things that work out in the U.S. do not generally work here as well. Dear Mr. Thomsen, why do you think there are no All-Star Games in any of the European Soccer leagues? Why is no one really interested into our Basketball-Allstar games the European Leagues hold out of American tradition? Why is Disneyland Paris such a bust?

Because Europeans don't give sh!t about the players or about the show or the bonanza of an allstar game. We only care about OUR clubs. If they win or loose fills us with joy or rips our heart out. We don't care about such events just because of the circus and the enternatinment. Sport here is dead serious. And that's basically is why the NBA would fail in Europe. We don't only want to get entertained, we want to identify, want to bind our fate to that of the team, be a part of something bigger than our own lifes. If we can't identify deep to our hearts with a team, we might recognize it, but we won't love it and we won't EVER pay such money for it.

1. European basketball needs the NBA.:
Why? What is so bad about \"minor league\"?? Sure, we don't have such a continental championship like the NBA does. But we are highly satisfied with our national leagues we can identify with so much more than almost any Sports fan in the US can. And for the intercontinental championships? There ist the Euroleague which has a lot of shortcoming I don't want to discuss in detail, but reforms are being discussed and problems will be solved over time.

Besides, many Europeans really enjoy our league systems in which not only the battle for the championships offers entertainment, but also the battles and the danger of relegation into a lower league, leaving even for fans of bottom feeder teams much more to talk and be excited about than just dreaming about winning the lottery...which they actually won't in most cases. This is one thing sooooo boring about U.S. sports, that we'll probably won't care. So again I don't see why our leagues needs the supposed blessings of the NBA league.

Besides, there is money made from basketball in some countries already, but that does not matter anything. In our European minds, the clubs belong to us, the members, the fans. They are our property. They aren't meant to be profitable for some investor group, but to give us joy and hope in our lifes. That might already be an illusion in regard to many soccer clubs, but speaking about this openly is a sin to every sports fan and the mindset Mr.Thomsen shows here, stating that we need the NBA so B-Ball could become profitable, is the exact recipe for failure.

And thinking that in any case, B-Ball or any other sport could ever reach or even break the popularity of socer is just illusional.

And I have in my earlier post spoken clearly why exactly this side-by-side of the NBA, which Mr. Thomsen thinks could help the local clubs raise interest won't work out, so I won't repeat that now.

And as long as the Olympics and World Championships are still battled out between European and Southern American teams...please don't come with \"Europe needs anybody\".

Wow Sanyarin. Just wow. Amazing posts. I feel so much more educated on Euro culture and the way they view sports now. Everything you said just re-affirmed my initial opinions times 10. The NBA globalizing to Europe would be a terrible idea for so many reasons. Awesome posts, some howl's are coming your way!

Thanks for the compliment, it's highly appreicated. I am just trying to improve the understanding of each other. Most problems people have with each other arise from simply not knowing who the other party ticks...because it's sadly not only a pressumed American issue to assume that, just because I have been doing and thinking in a special way that makes sense to me, everybody else must have logically come to the identical conclusion.

I think I have mentioned it before, but maybe the 2nd best part when I came to the US (second only two my girlfriend at Milwaukee) was that it so much broadened my horizon. To see how people, who are actually so similar to my culture as can get and even share the same ancestors, could have come up with so many different solutions for the same problems was flattering and wonderful at the same time. I consider that one of the most ey opening and character building expereinces of my life...

I am trying to give back as much of that gift of \"understanding\" as I could, becuase when we understand each other, we can live with each other and benefit from the other one's experiences.

I whished only Mr. Thomsen could read my, admittedly, not that kind input. But it's just because I have such a high opinion on him otherwise .

I have talked much about how that „franchise thing“ could never work in Europe...and that stands true. But there is indeed some benefit in having an unbelievable rich owner (be it an individual or a consortium) to cover for the lapses of the management by just pulling out his chequebook and spending a few more millions (maybe a little bit like Roman Abramovich does for Chelsea…which has a “little brother” here in the German soccer leagues as well).

But since most clubs are still very much opposed to inviting foreign money into their organizations, they might struggle at times in the small German market.

These days, a German 1st league B-Ball team, the Cologne 99ers is facing bancrupcy, although Cologne has to be considered one of the best sports markets in Germany. The best two players have already bolted for different teams once the monthly payments run late. Today, the team is offering a plan to league authorities how to at least finish the season competing in all games. If this plan does not get accepted by the authorities, those games will be canceled and considered losses for the 99ers.

And although this is a very, very sad thing for the fans and for the sport itself, the interesting point is the sum of money the team is stumbling over: The deficit is about € 800.000, equaling around $ 1.17 million (due to the low dollar)…which is not even twice the veteran’s minimum salary in the NBA and a joke compared to te fact that Jason Kidd will cost Marc Cuban’s Mavs $ 40 mil in salaries and taxes next season.

Sad, sad, sad…

Sanyarin.....You ought to be the one running against Obama...Not Hillary.